"Ten Words that Changed My Life"

Derick Brown, the chief advancement and strategic partnerships officer of the YMCA of San Francisco, shares the life-changing argument that pushed him from telling teens to pursue college…to enrolling himself the very next morning. In this gripping story about credibility, leadership, and “walking the walk,” Derick traces how ten blunt words from his students transformed his career, purpose, and commitment to public service. From the Boys & Girls Club to UC Berkeley to leading civic-engagement work in San Francisco, he shows how disagreement can spark growth, community, and impact. It’s a powerful reminder that sometimes the people we’re trying to inspire end up inspiring us.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Once you know something, it's almost impossible to remember what it was like to not know it. This is the curse of knowledge identified by several economists, and it explains why experts struggle to communicate with novices and why misunderstandings proliferate in disagreements.

When you know something that seems obvious to you, you can't fathom how others don't see it. It is the answer to this question. Why aren't the best basketball players? Also, the best basketball coaches, parents fall victim to the curse of knowledge constantly to understand why bedtime matters. For instance, sleep affects growth, learning mood and health to your child.

You're just being arbitrarily mean. You've forgotten what it was like to not understand sleep's importance, so you can't really explain it in terms. It resonates with someone who hasn't learned what you know. Your [00:01:00] obvious reasoning isn't obvious at all. The curse of knowledge makes workplace disagreements especially frustrating.

The IT person can't understand why users keep making the same simple mistakes. The veteran employees can't grasp why. New hires struggle with basic procedures. The manager who's seen five reorganizations can't comprehend why staff resist this one. Everyone's cursed by their own expertise, unable to communicate across the knowledge gap.

In political discussions, the curse of knowledge can create echo chambers, and people are deeply vested in an issue. Can't imagine how someone could reach a different conclusion. If you've spent months reading about climate change, denialism seems impossibly ignorant. If you've studied economics, certain policies seemed obviously doomed.

You forget that others haven't seen what you've seen. Read what you've read or learned, what you've learned, and your obvious conclusions. Rest on invisible foundations to others. Overcoming the knowledge curse requires radical empathy. And conscious communication. [00:02:00] Explain your reasoning from the beginning, not just your conclusions.

Define terms that seem basic to you. Share the experiences and information that shaped your view, and most importantly, remember that what seems obvious to you once seemed foreign. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Derrick Brown.

Derek is the senior director of the Leo t McCarthy Center at the University of San Francisco. Where he has strengthened the mission of inspiring students to pursue ethical public service since 2020. He's from San Francisco originally and he's a respected community advocate with over 20 years of experience in community building, fundraising and relationship management.

Derek, tell us an argument story. 

Derick Brown: Absolutely. First and foremost, Michael, thank you so much for having me. It is an absolute honor and privilege to be here today. My argument story is a bit personal to me, a little funny [00:03:00] but it is about myself and a heated argument with the youth, in particular teenagers that I work with at the Boys and Girls Club of San Francisco going back 20 years ago.

Michael Lee: Okay. Okay. I love this story. What were you arguing about? 

Derick Brown: Yeah it's interesting just to, to paint the picture. Imagine I'm about 25 years old. Seven years outta high school, didn't go to college but working with the Boys and Girls Club, running programs for teenagers. So I was a teen services director and I had this great idea to create this program.

And the program was called a college prep program. Okay. And my goal was to inspire the youth that I work with to go to college. So in that program, telling the youth. Let's go, definitely want you to go to school talking about the power of school and education. But during that conversation one of the young people said something that was profound.

10 words, 

Michael Lee: [00:04:00] okay, 

Derick Brown: why should I go to school if you never been? Those words. I said, you know what? I'm going to bat I'm going back and forth saying, wait a minute. It's not about me. It's not about me, it's about you, Uhhuh. And I'm going through every excuse in the book after about 45 minutes, just saying, it's not about me, it's about you.

They throwing it back in my face, okay. Things of this nature. It was so crazy. At the end of that argument, which I ended up losing the next day before I went to work. I went to City College of San Francisco to enroll in the school. 

Michael Lee: You were that inspired that quickly? 

Derick Brown: It was quick. It was interesting that 45 minutes going back and forth with the young people seemed like it was forever, but they were right here.

I was I'm trying to tell them what to do. I'm thinking I'm leading by example, but not really they're telling me, Derek, how can you do this and tell us to do this thing if you [00:05:00] never even pursued it? Never even thought about doing it. And for me, again, I was adamant on not doing it because one, I barely graduated high school, didn't want to go back, didn't want to do any papers or anything like that, any homework.

It wasn't about me, it was about them. But once they put that mirror in my face. Like they were right. So I figured, okay, let me just give school a try. 

Michael Lee: Were they right on the issues you think as you go back to it? In other words, in order to inspire, you have to have been doing the thing that you're trying to get your audience to, to be inspired to do.

In other words, you can't say do as I say, not as I do. 

Derick Brown: Absolutely. It was absolutely that I had to not only do it, but walk the walk Uhhuh couldn't necessarily just say it. I had to really put that action towards it to show them that, okay no. I'm gonna do it too. Therefore, I can express and let you know this is what you need to do.

Michael Lee: And taking your line. Originally, I have some curiosity about. [00:06:00] One case, which is that you, one of the ways you could really stress that it's important to go to college if you haven't, is to say perhaps, here are the things that I know that I'm missing out on. And so don't make the same. If you want the access to those things, don't make the same mistake that I do.

So that's one thing you could certainly prove with the position you were in before you went back. 

Derick Brown: Yeah, and that's where it's it was interesting because there I was 25 thinking I'm back. I'm so grown and I don't need to go back or anything like that. But with those young people. Encouraging me to go like that changed my life for the best.

I was able to go to City College did extremely well surprised myself, I was, natural dean's list. A couple years in a row, I would give my report card and then I would run to the Boys and Girls Club and show the young people, Hey, look at my report card. We would have competitions to see who could get the highest GPA.

Which I will win every semester, but it was still [00:07:00] great to get them to push and push to do well. Definitely lean by example that way as well. 

Michael Lee: This is truly a kind of life changing argumently. Had you been thinking about going back to school before this dispute that you had? 

Derick Brown: No, with before this dispute.

No I was like, no, I'm out of school. I finished high school, I'm done. My, my mom, dropped outta high school when she had me, so she didn't graduate. And then my dad, he barely graduated from high school and that was it. So for me, when I graduated high school, like the family was pumped up like that was it.

Like I was done. Yeah. And wasn't even thinking about going back to school at all. 

Michael Lee: Wow. What did you study when you went back? 

Derick Brown: Yeah, so when I went back my first couple years, it was general education. And then when I, my last year at City College, I got elected to the board of trustees. Okay. So then I became student trustee and got introduced to politics.

So I got connected with a lot of amazing [00:08:00] folks on the local, state and national level. And then I graduated City College valedictorian and commencement speaker, and then transferred to uc, Berkeley, where I studied public affairs and American studies. And really got acclimated with the civic engagement space as well as politics and education.

Yeah, that's it. It's, it was crazy. Definitely a huge whirlwind. Yeah. But again, those 10 words and having that heated argument for 45 minutes would felt like hours and hours definitely changed my life for the best. 

Michael Lee: What was their reaction when you came back and said, okay, you win? I just enrolled.

Derick Brown: They were shocked. They were absolutely shocked. They said, no you didn't. No, I said, here goes my paperwork. Here's go all the things that my, my registration, I am set and I'm ready. And they, a lot of 'em were in disbelief, but then they began to say, wow we actually encourage you. And I'm [00:09:00] saying, yes, you actually encourage me.

And they were absolutely blown away but encouraged because I listened to them. We had this disagreement. We went back and forth. I was an adult, they were still teenagers and they had the power to change my mind and have this adult go to college enroll because of them. So they were blown away.

Michael Lee: Yeah, I bet. Do you still keep in touch with some of them? 

Derick Brown: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So I have a long line of them now, that went to college as well. Graduated, I go to graduations. I see them, I mentor them. I go to different, their weddings and things of that nature.

Yeah. We're a close knit family, and, I'm still connected with the Boys and Girls Club to this day. I'm a board of director with the Boys, boys and Girls Club. I oversee and we have different reunion events and things of that nature, so I'm always [00:10:00] engaging with those young people.

Michael Lee: When the argument concluded after this 45 minutes and the infamous 10 words, yeah. Where was it left before you went home and molded over and then enrolled? Shortly thereafter, was it left with you saying, you've got a point and I'm gonna go home and think about this. Was it left with you continuing to press the case that this is not about me?

Was it agree to disagree situation? 

Derick Brown: It was a little bit of both. It was a little bit. After that conversation I said to myself, I didn't necessarily tell the young people that, okay, I'm about to, I'm gonna go to road before I come tomorrow. I was know what? Okay. Know what? You make a good point.

You make a good point. Let's move on. Let's continue to talk. You make a great point. I hear you loud and clear. None of them knew that. I didn't even know I was gonna go the next day. But just. That conversation just really just sat with me. It really sat with me even that evening. Yeah I'm, eating dinner, thinking about it, I go to [00:11:00] sleep, I'm dreaming about it, and when I woke up that morning, I said, know what?

I'm just gonna go. I don't have anything to lose. Let me just stop by City College before I go into work. But that's how, yeah, when I left that evening, no, I I didn't even know I was gonna go the next day. 

Michael Lee: Did you have subsequent moments where you were still in school that were tough or challenging where you thought I might've overreacted a little bit?

Derick Brown: Surprisingly, no. Surprisingly it began to be easy. Like I went to school in the morning. I had my my, my work in the evenings, afternoons and evenings. It just flowed for some reason. Like where I began to do well, I was getting, A's I was, I it was, I was like this whole nother person where before in high school I'm rushing to get outta school to be done.

And that was it. I was always, smart, but I really didn't apply myself too much. So when I [00:12:00] got to college. I began to just be laser focused which made it easier. When I needed to take the time off to do the exams, I was able to do that. But I, again, this whole experience was shocking. It was what I just didn't expect to do as well as I did. But a very interesting process 

Michael Lee: as I reflect on this story and your career and life trajectory here. I'm struck by just how different things are from when you were 25. But then at the same time, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

So looking at your public facing work at the McCarthy Center at San Francisco and looking at the record of inspiration for public service that y'all try to accomplish out there. And maybe it doesn't seem like you're that far away from the curriculum you were teaching at the Boys and Girls Club.

Derick Brown: You're right. Yeah. The work that we're doing at the LEO team McCarthy Center, we're preparing the next generation of leaders for public service. And here I am now really now leading by example, working with [00:13:00] young people, connecting 'em with different opportunities on a local, state and national level.

Continuously to be that mentor, connect our students with different opportunities. 20 years ago, again, I was at the Boys and Girls Club doing similar, very similar work with teenagers. Now I'm doing very similar work with young adults in college and and with me, my life has come full circle.

Just growing up in the city, being in the community, working within the community, going off to school, coming back, uplifting the community. 

Michael Lee: What's your best pitch now for the value of continued education to the use of the world 20 years ago who thought, I'm done after high school, or That world doesn't apply to me.

Derick Brown: Yeah, keep your eyes on the prize, keep your eyes open. Continue to explore opportunities. One of the things that I really learned was to network network or not work. Being able to build relationships, staying connected like even with me. [00:14:00] Throughout the years, working at different jobs I rarely apply for a job, right?

Like I, I get a call from, whether it's a mayor or chief or president or this or that, and folks see what I'm doing. Because I have a established network. And, appoint me to different things. Again, network or not work with my amazing network I'll continue to work and do some extraordinary and impactful work.

For the society. 

Michael Lee: Last questions about your argument style, your conflict style. We have one story about you and a conflict, and in that conflict you gave as much as you got, but then you really took a big action to show that you not just agreed, but that you were gonna make a change to demonstrate that agreement in favor of those you were arguing with.

Is that a special example where you've done that in your life, or is that a broad pattern? 

Derick Brown: Yeah that's how I do it. That's how I operate. Where it's like if I'm gonna have a conversation, one of the things that I look at is [00:15:00] I love to create win-win situations. I think in this world that everyone, no matter who you ask, everyone wants to win.

And everyone loves good people. And for me. On both of those, like when we're having a conversation, or even if we're having a, disagreement or whatever the case may be, my goal is to always, to figure out ways to create a win-win situation in a positive and warm argumentative style where I don't like to fight.

I have to, if I have to fight, I have to fight that's fine. I don't mind doing that, but I feel that, there's. I could always compromise. We can always compromise. We can always work things out. So even if I get a no, that no is just a temporary no in leading us to that. Yes. So let me figure out a way to bring us closer to the Yes.

Because again, ultimately we all want to win and we all love good people. So I love to create those situations in any [00:16:00] argument, conversation, debate that I'm in. 

Michael Lee: Derek Brown, thank you so much for being on when we disagree. 

Derick Brown: Absolutely. Michael, thank you so much. It's an absolute honor to be here.

Really appreciate it.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We disagree@gmail.com.