How Do You Argue Against a Conspiracy Theory? (re-release from 2024)

As we approach the holidays, When We Disagree is re-releasing episodes about tough conversations with friends and family. This week's episodes are both about arguing with friends about conspiracy theories. When college student Victor Dupont’s coworker claimed the moon was a government projection and gravity a hoax, he found himself face-to-face with a flat-Earth believer—and the limits of argument. In this episode, Victor explores what it’s like to reason with conspiracy-minded friends, why certainty can feel so seductive, and where open-mindedness meets gullibility. From TikTok-fueled misinformation to the comfort of “knowing” what others don’t, this conversation asks: how do we talk across worlds that no longer share the same facts?

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Transcript

Michael Lee : [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Have you ever had an argument hangover? We often think about disagreements as a contest of words and ideas of two clever brains locked in a contest. It's a verbal back and forth.

The classic he said, she said cliche, but some arguments, especially emotional ones, are fully embodied. We feel them as much as we think them or say them. And they have an impact on our bodies long after they end. I can remember being in arguments, particularly ones that couldn't be resolved in the moment that left me hungover for days.

It honestly felt like I had way too much to drink. My head hurt. I felt weak, and I was so foggy that regular tasks felt difficult and overwhelming. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility [00:01:00] Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest on when We Disagree today is Victor DuPont from Delaware.

Victor, tell us an argument story. 

Victor Dupont : Thanks for the introduction, Mike. For my irksome argument, I'll be telling you about a ex-coworker of mine who happens to believe the earth is flat. Well, I mean, calling him a flat airer would be an understatement. He kind of believes in all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories, but, basically, I was working at this pizza place for a whole year and I had this coworker Jock jock is a character let's see. I first started hearing about it when we were looking at the moon, and he said, that isn't real, you know? And I was like, what? It kind of caught me off guard. I'm like, what do you, can you elaborate on that?

And he is like. The moon, like it's a, it's a, it's a mirage from like the, the, the United States. They're like displaying an image of a moon on the, on the firmament. I'm like, what are you talking about, [00:02:00] man? So we get more into it and, you know, he's just telling me, I, the, the, the first way I try to dispr his theory is I pick up a pen and I drop and I'm like, I go explain that.

And he is like, dude, how do you really think gravity is real? I'm like, what? He's like, dude, it's got weight to it. So I tried to get deeper into his logic and his thinking about why he thought this way. And the more and more I argued with him, the, the more and more he pushed back. And, you know, it's, it's funny talking to someone that believes the earth is flat.

'cause it's like you don't really expect to. To see that in, on a day-to-day basis. It's just like something you see in like YouTube videos. It's like talking to flat Earthers, but when you challenge someone's worldview, they, there's a bit of pushback and you can't really get into the 

Michael Lee : Yeah. 

Victor Dupont : Nitty gritty of that.

Michael Lee : Let me ask you about the, the argument [00:03:00] itself, and it sounds like. You could have a lot of contentious arguments with this guy over some bitty, pretty basic factual realities. So let's just talk about the flat Earth one, just to take a case in point. So he brings up to challenge you that the earth is flat, you make your case.

No, it's not, it's round. And then what does he say? 

Victor Dupont : His, his entire spiel is that everybody, like the government astrophysicists, they're all lying to you and that they have enough funding that. They can do that pretty much. And like the entire education system, it, it kind of, you can't argue against it because whatever you say, he says that you were taught incorrectly.

Michael Lee : Right. And so it's almost like you can't even really have an argument that's limited to the flat earth question. 

Victor Dupont : Mm-hmm. 

Michael Lee : Because it inevitably gets into a broader conspiracy of mind control. Of which he is the only person who has escaped and everybody [00:04:00] else is just an unwitting peon. Who's parroting.

Victor Dupont : Yeah. 

Michael Lee : Bought and sold lies. 

Victor Dupont : At some point I had started playing into it and just acting like, I was like, oh really? That's, that's crazy. I mean, and then like, it'd be like, alright, trying to understand where he is coming from. But it, it really comes down to the entire flat earth argument, boils down into two words.

And what he referenced time and time again was the two words. Because God, you know, all he has is some like crazy conspiracist Bible that just says all this stuff. And no matter what you say, it's just because God, because God, because God. And like if that one statement were to not be true, his entire argument would shatter.

But that's what the whole movement boils down to. 

Michael Lee : Did you ever struggle to answer him? I mean, other, so many of us grow up and we're not, we're taught about. The Copernican Revolution and these very old ideas about human consciousness of a round earth, but we're not actively [00:05:00] taught to defend that against folks who are saying flat earth conspiracy theories.

Did you struggle at all or be conscious of your struggling to actually say, no, I think it's round and here's the good reasons I have. Of, 

Victor Dupont : yeah. Well, I'm not like a psychologist, so I can't really break someone down into like really believe like when, when someone's beliefs are that firmly planted, you know, it, it is.

It is difficult to. Like respond at times. A lot of the times I just found myself like laughing and that just brought him deeper into the hole of like, I don't want to talk about this because you're gonna make fun of me. 

Michael Lee : Right. And it's, it's not necessarily about the firmness, right? Because I presume you would have a, you would say that your opinion on the Earth's surround US is firm as well?

Yeah. It's more that there's a misinformation or perhaps even a disinformation in the other person's expression of opinion that you're struggling to deal with. 

Victor Dupont : Yeah, well, it, it all really plays into like confirmation bias too. 'cause you know, the, he would show me videos on TikTok. [00:06:00] That was the primary source of information he got from.

Unqualified people. So it would just, like you see something that goes against what you believe and you just disregard it. I mean, that's, that's what confirmation bias is. I guess it's like one of our strongest fallacies as humans where you know it, it's the same thing with like Democrats or Republicans.

If you're gonna watch Fox News or CNN. Either side pre, like, prefer like their own agendas. So yeah, that's 

Michael Lee : Well, so much of the culture now is struggling to argue about conspiracy theories and with conspiracy theorists. 

Victor Dupont : Mm-hmm. 

Michael Lee : From your experience, do you have any suggestions about better ways to approach folks who are a little lost in their beliefs in a broader conspiracy?

Victor Dupont : I gotta think about that one. I mean. It, it, it, I think there could be some reform in [00:07:00] education, I guess, where, I mean, obviously education doesn't teach you that the earth is flat. I, I, I honestly don't really, I don't, I don't know how you could really counter that. I'm not like, 

Michael Lee : and I, and true, and from your own experience with this, this one person, and I've, I think we all have, but I certainly have experiences like this.

But I wonder to what extent you thought that the belief is a performance that's designed to provoke you, that there's some joy in being contrarian about everything and challenging people's most basic unstated assumptions about their world, or whether you think this is his legitimate belief system.

Victor Dupont : I, I'm 99.9% positive that he genuinely does believe this stuff and. It just makes me sad because, I mean, his sister worked there as well and she's like, just don't even start with him. Like it's honestly, [00:08:00] at times he was, he was, he seemed so confident that like, I started to be like, wait, honestly, 

Michael Lee : like this?

Victor Dupont : I don't see any curve in the earth, but 

Michael Lee : starting to make some sense. 

Victor Dupont : Yeah. I mean there, there really is like no way you can. Fully know unless you're in a spaceship. But he says even, even that, like they, they put you in like a simulator where you go up and like, and it just looks like you're in space. I guess that's like his whole, but the, the question I I, I always ask myself was like, why, like from his point of view, why.

Millions of people in nasa in any, anything that relates to like the physics of the earth or space, just lie about that. You know, there's, there's, there's nothing to gain out of it. Like, 

Michael Lee : yeah, 

Victor Dupont : people, people. Enjoy like order and like being nodule about subjects. Why would everyone be together just against him?

It's like the same thing as people that believe like they're being like I, I don't know if you've like seen like gang stalkers, Uhhuh people that like think they're being followed by everyone. [00:09:00] It's like, why would everyone just be against you for no reason? You know? 

Michael Lee : Yeah. There is. The, in the literature, some people call this a solipsistic fantasy.

Yeah. The world is a product of your own mind and creation. But I want to really tease out the line you said about people enjoy knowing things and a sense of order. Did you ever, when you're talking to this person. Have a kind of fascination or even interest in that kind of certainty. In other words, there is some speculation that perhaps one of the reasons that conspiracy culture and conspiracy theory is so wide in the internet age is that the world is a very confusing.

And gray place. There's very few blacks and whites, but this kind of worldview offers you a very clear sense of black and white, of up and down, of predictability in amidst all of the chaos. And so then he can present to you as if he's got it all figured out and in there you are [00:10:00] lost in the quicksand. 

Victor Dupont : I think it did give him a sense of security knowing that like this is what truly was happening and that like.

Everyone was in the dark and he was in the light. And I think it's, it's, it's a mix of feeling safe that you know what's actually going on and knowing something that other people don't, you know, you feel like it, it almost places you above them in like a mental intelligence, you know? I would, I would argue 

Michael Lee : as we close, I'm curious to kind of broaden out on conspiracies.

Do you believe in any conspiracy theories? 

Victor Dupont : I, I, I do believe in quite a few. Do you want me to like, like list some? I guess 

Michael Lee : you don't necessarily have to, but I'm curious. 

Victor Dupont : I, I, I'm speculative of the, the JFK assassination. I think it's a little shady. You know, there was, if, if you, if you look into it, I mean the, the, the guy who shot him, he his psychologist was in the ccia A and [00:11:00] there's all this stuff.

I mean, I, I'm not gonna get into it. I don't know it very well, like the back of my hand either, but. There, there's, there's definitely like a lot of, like, there's like Bohemian Grove and all that where there's like tons of high ranking individuals in the world who like go to like a spot and worship a burning owl and like, that's kinda weird and there's some stuff there, but the earth, earth being flat, I think that's that bridge 

Michael Lee : too far.

Victor Dupont : Yeah. That, that, that kind. It, it, it almost, it makes other conspiracies like seem more crazy because they can just point to like categorize conspiracies as a whole and like they're flat earthers and they believe this and they believe that even though you can, it's, it's really more picky choosy than that.

Michael Lee : So if you're, you're not pro conspiracy or anti conspiracy, you have a bit of both within your psychological makeup, where do you draw the line? About which ones are true and which ones are false. 

Victor Dupont : It, it, it really comes [00:12:00] down to like the evidence behind it. Like we have gen genuine pictures of these people at the Bohemian Grove, like Alex Jones snuck in and took videos of everything.

You know, if you look at. Like UFOs, for example, the CIA literally released clips of UFOs on their military cameras flying around. And there's thousands of reports from people who fly aircraft that like they see them off the coast of like North Carolina and tons of reportings, flat earth. It's like we have pictures of like the earth and we have so much evidence behind it that, that, that's where I draw the line.

It's just if there's some sort of. Evidence. You know, that's what it comes down to. 

Michael Lee : Victor, thank you very much for being on When We Disagree. 

Victor Dupont : Thank you for having me. 

Michael Lee : When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse KZ and Lance Laidlaw.

Reach out to us at When We [00:13:00] disagree@gmail.com.