The Great Pizza Debate

Jon Sklaroff, a podcast and public media professional, comes in hot with a controversial claim: there’s only one true pizza — New York style. A lighthearted food debate moves into a deeper conversation about meaning, majority rule, and why definitions matter. We explore whether pizza — and truth — should be decided by consensus or by conviction. A hilarious, oddly profound argument about how we define the things we love.

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Transcript

Michael Lee : [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. The first number matters more specifically. The first number you hear in a negotiation might matter more than all of the other arguments and numbers that follow whether you're haggling at a flea market or discussing salary.

That initial figure becomes what we call an anchor that drags all subsequent disagreement and thinking toward it. That cognitive bias of anchoring doesn't just affect negotiations, it affects how we interpret information and resolve conflicts. Psychologists, aist KY and Danny Kahneman demonstrated this phenomenon with a rigged wheel of fortune.

Game participants spun the wheel secretly set to land on either 10 or 65. Then estimated the percentage of African nations in the United Nations, those who spun 10, average [00:01:00] 25%. Those who spun 65, average 45%. In other words, a completely random number had hijacked their total judgment. Workplaces run on anchoring performance reviews were a first item.

Discussed color, colors, everything that follows is an example. And salary negotiations where the initial offer determines the final range project timelines where an optimistic early estimate becomes the expectation regardless of emerging complexities or marketing executives who know that the original price, even when some items that are always on sale are still on sale.

Anchors of value perception amongst customers. Historical examples reveal anchoring power to the 40 hour work week. Initially, a radical reduction from 60 to 80 hour norms now anchors our expectations so strongly that slight variations can feel extreme. The Miranda warning specific phrasing anchored our understanding of rights so thoroughly that in any deviation seems [00:02:00] suspicious or illegal, and this bias extends to moral and political judgment.

Whatever version of a story we first hear anchors our interpretation of subsequent information. Initial media framing of some event creates anchors that fact checks or correlations can struggle to dislodge. And once we've anchored on someone being the victim or aggressor, the hero or the villain, new information can often get interpreted through that lens.

An overcoming anchoring requires some conscious recalibration. In negotiations. Ignoring the first offer and independently determining your position is a really valuable way to go. When receiving criticism, ask yourself, would this field feedback feel different if presented in a different order? In heated discussions, explicitly acknowledge and question the anchors.

Why are we using that as our first reference point? And sometimes the best strategy is just setting your own anchor first. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility [00:03:00] Initiative at the College of Charleston. Today's guest on when We Disagree is John Soff. John has been working in podcasts and public media for over a decade and he's now with two Beautiful to Live a Daily podcast that's been going since 2008.

John, tell us an argument story. 

Jon Sklaroff : Hey Mike. I'm here to tell you why definitively there's only one kind of pizza. And it's I'll just get it right up front. It's New York style. 

Michael Lee : Wow. Alright. Bold claims up front. I also just thank you in advance for bringing some conversation with heft and gravity to the proceedings.

You know, we can only talk about light issues like Yeah. Israel and elections and War and Peace for so long before we get into the heavy stuff. So thank you. 

Jon Sklaroff : Probably your most. Divisive episode. For for sure. I think, 

Michael Lee : you know, I, I don't know what you're gonna say yet, as is our custom on this show for folks to come on and surprise me with their good ideas.

But I could also see this, this being more divisive than one might expect. So yeah, let hit us with [00:04:00] it. New York style pizza is the only pizza. Everything else is a pretender. I hear you. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yes. Yeah. So simply put, so I'll say this. My wife who, who you know, Mike. Probably one of the smartest people I know, if not the smartest person I know personally.

Mm-hmm. Has a, has a saying, which is like, if it's got sauce, cheese, and dough, it's pizza. And for years I was like, yeah, that's fine. But, but as the more I, as the older I get, the more I think about, I just don't think that's true. I think you have to have. More definitions on, on things these days.

Words matter words, people say wherever they want these days, and I think we need to have more definitions and, and structure to maintain balance in order 

Michael Lee : what's really chaos. It will rain. Yeah. If we don't rain this in, right? Yeah, exactly. Sauce, pizza and dough is an insufficient marker of what characterizes a pizza for you.

Yes. Your counter definition is. 

Jon Sklaroff : Well see, this is, I admittedly, this is where I struggle a little bit. I do have, I do have a little bit of a [00:05:00] a definitional hangup, but I will say like the great mind of our time, John Stewart said, you know, this was in specific reference to a debate he was having with the whole City of Chicago.

Say, okay. He said, you know, you guys call yours deep dish, or what he didn't say. I know a lot of folks listening in Chicago will say, well, we have tavern style. Okay, you call yours tavern style. We call ours. Pizza. So definitely. Alright. If we're saying like, this is the thing we're just calling it, then that's what it's, and I know you might say, you might be like, well, other people outside of the New York area say it's New York style pizza.

But I would counter with we are theoretically a democracy, a majority rule. 

Michael Lee : Okay. And 

Jon Sklaroff : overwhelmingly, the New York metro area is the biggest population center in the United States, and that majority of people call it pizza, right? So if the majority of people call a specific thing something, okay, then I think that's what everyone else should fall in line and call it.

Michael Lee : Man, I, I'm really struck here [00:06:00] being yeah. Yeah. Kind of drawn into this argument and really wanting to fight you on points that I frankly don't really have much of a, of a dog in this fight. Yeah. And also just seeking to understand, so I'm gonna de defer Yeah. Please to my better angels, please, for just a moment and just seek to understand, did I hear you right at the outset that you were interested in the best pizza or now that I hear you definitionally, you're saying there's only one kind of pizza.

There is only one kind of you, you will not acknowledge. Take step acknow the existence of No, 

Jon Sklaroff : no, no, no, no. I, first of all, I want yuck and yums. If you like Dish, if you like Detroit style, great. They all taste great. Okay. Right. But. I, I acknowledge their existence. Okay. But I think if you're gonna say like, this is pizza.

If we, when the aliens come down and they say, give us pizza, 

Michael Lee : which inevitably they will clearly, 

Jon Sklaroff : which inevitably they will at this rate, they start, I'll hold, I'll 

Michael Lee : start holding my breath. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah, yeah. Then what will they be presented with? And to me that is New York style, ak. Pizza. 

Michael Lee : [00:07:00] What? What a fascinating scene that would be when the aliens finally come down and we've had movies after movies and plays and shows, imagining the horrors of that encounter and they actually just want pizza.

And then we, we end up killing ourselves over the question, well, which one should we give them? We know what more than one kinds of pizza. I mean, you clearly do, and I imagine some others in the five boroughs do as well. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah. Let me, let me, let me throw this at you, Mike. Okay. I want, 

Michael Lee : can I do a thought exercise with you?

I, I love that you've brought a whole agenda here, so Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it. I've been 

Jon Sklaroff : thinking about a lot about this lately List. Okay. Describe to me a cheeseburger. 

Michael Lee : Well, I would, I would get a patty. Mm-hmm. I would hopefully cook it over a charcoal grill. Sure. Oh, you get 

Jon Sklaroff : real specific. I like this 

Michael Lee : varieties of cheeses.

Yeah. I make a, a James Beard style with shaved onions in it. A little Worcester ton of salt, you know, heavy heat, sear bow sides. Let it cook on the void side for a little while on the charcoal. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah. 

Michael Lee : And then I, I also like to put a little bit of heavy cream in there, [00:08:00] in the, in the patio, just a little bit, right?

That's, it doesn't have enough fat already. And so we're gonna make it a little bit fattier. And then of course, finish it off with, I prefer a cheddar, but I will acknowledge the existence in the spirit of democracy, of other kinds of cheese that should be on it. Especially like an American or an easy melter.

Uhhuh. Yeah. And of course, buns. I like a California style lettuce, tomato, mayo. We're off and running. 

Jon Sklaroff : Great. I think that is very much what you're saying is very prototypical. Patty, seasoned very well, obviously, as you described, washi as a must. Mm-hmm. I do recommend instead the heavy fat or the cream, maybe like a little bit of pork in there that gives you a little more fat, a little more flavor.

Okay. Stick a little bit of ground pork. 

Michael Lee : Yeah. Take it up with James Beard. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah. But patty bun, lettuce, tomato, easy to melt. Cheese. You're thinking, you said cheddar, maybe American like a uhhuh, a yellow cheese. Right? Yep. This is, I think if you ask, if you stop a hundred people on the street, if we're doing Family Feud, the overwhelming majority are gonna describe something similar to that.

Right. What they're not gonna [00:09:00] describe is a smash burger with onions, like an Oklahoma style smash burger. Right. Which is, you know, it's thin and it's all crust basically. And, and, and the, and those onions that have been sauteing. Don't get me wrong, like just thinking about it. It's only 9:48 AM where I am.

I want to eat one right now. They're delicious. But an Oklahoma style smashburger is not when you think cheeseburger. A cheeseburger. I think for the overwhelming majority of people, and this is the, what I'm getting to with the regards to the pizza too, I also obviously have, okay. Hot takes on hamburgers, but this is, this is what I'm getting back to is like definitionally.

I think with that question with pizza is as the Supreme Court said, it's art. You know, I know it's art when I see it kind of thing. I know it's pizza when I see it. Yeah. The Potter Stewart 

Michael Lee : definition of pornography, right? I know exactly. I wa I was before we see it. 

Jon Sklaroff : I wasn't sure how controversial we can get on this con on this call.

So I wanted to to explicitly say it's a court case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. But I think, I think that's where I'm kind of getting to ultimately with my argument around pizza. Like a [00:10:00] cheeseburger, like a pizza, like you, like when you think of it, you're thinking of a very specific thing. Okay. And I think, again, for the majority of people, it's not a bean burger.

It's not a like I said, a smashburger. It's not these other kinds of hamburgers. It's not. Chicago Deep Dish. It's not Chicago Tavern, it's not Neapolitan, you know, wood fire. It's that very classic. Okay. Thin crust, New York style pizza. 

Michael Lee : I mean, I'm, I'm guessing if we just like push in on your majority, majority rules argue.

Yeah. They're mostly probably thinking about Pizza Hut. No, that's, is that the vast majority of Americans or are we just limiting this to major cities that have a stake in like a Detroit style or a. So this is, this is where we're gonna push back now. Yeah. On your majority argument a little bit. Yeah.

Because I, I have two specific objections. So how do you feel if, if we're going there mm-hmm. Then I think that you, your argument fails by its own standard, which is what do most people think about 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah. 

Michael Lee : When they think about pizza, pizza, do most 

Jon Sklaroff : people think about pizza? So I, I assume I hear what you're saying.

Where in [00:11:00] most locations around the country, that's the most. I'm assuming mm-hmm. The most most eaten pizza in America. Right. That Or Domino's. Or Domino's, yeah. Or frankly, 

Michael Lee : how different are they, you know, all, yeah. All credit to these lovely corporations, but, you know, they seem like of a similar genre to me.

Yeah. You know, take Papa John's, take all the conventional ones. These are not the New York Tulsa style pizzas you're talking about. They're certainly not absolutely Chicago style. They, 

Jon Sklaroff : I will say, they all do ape the New York style. There will be, like, if you go Domino's, I think they call it a Brooklyn style pizza.

There are diff, they all sell a version of this because they know. For most people, that's what they're looking for. I think Uhhuh, I also would say I would push back in like maybe not necessarily. See, yeah, I, this is your show where people have concrete data and evidence and facts. In mine's more of a vibe and feeling argument.

Yeah. This is 

Michael Lee : more of a vibe. Yeah. I would say that as a reflection of what Americans are actually arguing about. Yeah, it's a, I bet there's a ton, way more of a heat map on the vibes than there is on data and evidence. Yeah, unfortunately. 

Jon Sklaroff : On the things that matter, there's too [00:12:00] many vibes and things like this is where I think like q and I arguing over, yeah, 

Michael Lee : what's the best pizza?

Or is there only one kind of pizza? Or did that guy deserve a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct? Or is it a flagrant one or a flagrant two? I bet those are way more represented. Boy, more five 

Jon Sklaroff : I, so I would say like. But in response to that kind of question, that pushback of like, well, most people probably eat Domino's or pizza or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yes, I would agree. That's probably a statistically true representation matters, you know, Mike. Sure. And when you think of media that we consume. Every TV show, every movie you've seen unless it is a film that takes place in Chicago, if they're eating pizza, what are you likely to see on that screen?

And yet, I, I, and I understand the pushback to that. It's like, well, most film and television is in New York or LA or something where there is this coastal bias or influence or whatever it may be. Mm-hmm. But I think when you, if your question is, well. What do most Americans perceive as pizza? I think that we have to assume there [00:13:00] is influence from what we consume, not just the food wise.

Michael Lee : Yeah. The second objection I have, I think, gets to the kind of heart of your quest here. Your quest seems to be about meaning. Obviously it's, you have a, you have a stake in this pizza fight, but your, your larger point, kinda the justification for why this matters Uhhuh is. Meaning matters. Yeah. And your argument for meaning is about majoritarianism majority rules.

And so my, my counterclaim to that is that you have the same view of meaning that the electoral college has about the election, which is that winner takes all, well, if I win North Carolina 3 million and won, and you won. 2,999,099. Then I went all over North Carolina's electoral votes. And so per your standard of the meaning of pizza Uhhuh, if there's just more New Yorkers or more people who are generally acknowledging the existence of this Uhhuh [00:14:00] iconic pizza, which is kind of New York style, therefore.

That is the pizza and everything else is just the perverse derivation of that. The, the alternative to that is, are you familiar with the work of Ludwig Vichtenstein? 

Jon Sklaroff : I can't say I am, but I have some thoughts that we just said. Please go 

Michael Lee : tell me. I'm sure. Sure. Tell me about Luddy. Yeah, exactly. Luddy Vichtenstein if, and in case you skipped brushing up on him this morning.

Yeah. Had an approach to meaning that was about consensus. And so the question he asked in a kind of logical experiment is, is what is a game? What are the properties of games? And then you start listing, well, this is a game. Tiddlywinks is a game, basketball is a game. Some people play games in relationships though, and all of a sudden the meaning of game is really, really difficult.

We know games, as you said, when we see them. Huh. And so then we have cohered as a society because we kind of understand what you, and I mean generically when we're talking about game, but that doesn't mean [00:15:00] that if 5,000,001 people say that a game is x, a game has to have a ball, a game has to feature running.

That chess is not a game. It just means that, that it's a part of the consensus as opposed to the winner take all view that you have your electoral college view of meaning and therefore the definition of pizza. Okay, your turn. 

Jon Sklaroff : So, so I, I do need to for say like my wife, you arguing with the Rian is a, is a zero sum.

It's a lose lose proposition at from the start at you again 

Michael Lee : with your dichotomous thinking. These black, these white votes. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah. This is, this is challenge. This is uphill. I'm Sisyphus right now. So. I'll say I'm not, I'm not for the electoral college, I think is a failed comparison to my way of thinking because okay.

The electoral college is itself inherently antithetical to majority rule. Right? It at the state level. Yes. If 3,000,001 people vote for one person, North Carolina versus 2 million 9, 9, 9, 9, whatever. Right. The 3 million in one get all the electoral votes for North Carolina, but [00:16:00] the Electoral College is a part of a broader system that is representative of 50 states, and it is inherently flawed for that exact reason where it's not.

Well, we can get into the whole electoral college flaws, okay? If we're talking a majority rule, right? If we were a true democracy in that sense, representative democracy, then the the president in this case will be decided by the most people that voted for one person, not based on this archaic flawed system of awarding points based on states.

That is its own kind of thing. So I think that to me is where. Your counterpoint fails is, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's majority based on an isolated, you know, a vacuum, like a singular state. I'm saying overall I would, Ima, you know, based on the, it's more. Rank choice voting, I think is how you would look at it.

Where it's like if 20 million people are saying this is pizza and 17 million people are saying this is pizza and 15 million people and go going down the line. Mm-hmm. Then, then, you [00:17:00] know again, if you're doing the rank choice, I guess in this case, maybe the people voting. For Chicago as their number one might have pizza as their number three, where, I mean, whatever.

Now I'm, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going off the rails here, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. I don't look at it from a, a electoral standpoint. 'cause again, that's a vacuum of a singular state as opposed to the whole representative. 

Michael Lee : What was the first claim you made? On the show? 

Jon Sklaroff : Well, I think I kind of talked myself in the circles here now.

I think probably that, well, that New York, if we could roll the 

Michael Lee : tape back. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah, yeah. No, no, we don't need to do that. So I think, I think more or less that pizza is, that New York style pizza is the definitive pizza. I think that's how, what I, if I didn't say that clearly, that's what I'm trying to make the case for.

Michael Lee : Right. Right, and that's where we get into the kind of, yeah, winner takes all approach. Hence my analog analogy to the, yeah. Electoral college ranked choice voting is more of a Vic Stein point of view. Uhhuh as it regards, meaning uhhuh, this kind of, everybody gets a say and it ends up being a little bit more of a kind of jumbled democratic mass as far as what is pizza, what is game.

Yeah. These are things that we kind of conventionally [00:18:00] agree upon. These are connotative definitions as opposed to denotative definitions and so forth. So that was, that was, yeah. The premise of, of my analogy. Yeah. I, I certainly get and, and more to the point as well. Yeah. Somebody coming on this show or anyone saying New York City is the best of anything.

Yeah. And then pushing back on a claim that they're advancing a kind of elitism to me is the deepest, deepest irony. 

Jon Sklaroff : Well, again, it's not, that's the, as far as personal preference, I'm not saying the best. I think it is the best. Sure. You like whatever you like. Yes. But I think when, if we are gonna collectively say like, this is the standard.

Yeah. Maybe that's a better way of saying it. Yeah. I think that is, you know, and not because of. Flavor or taste, but because of majority, because of influence, like I said, you know, like the, you know, think of Hollywood or think of kind of if you, I'm sure again, this is all hypothetical and please don't come at me.

People like if you are ask a European to describe American style pizza, say, or whatever, or you know, it's like draw pizza. They're gonna draw you a [00:19:00] little triangle. And it's gonna have, you know, it's gonna, it's, I mean, it will depend on their dimensions of it, whether it's, you know think crest or not, but mm-hmm.

I, again, I think it's just the kind of like very standardized. It's, it's, it's the standard, I guess I would say. 

Michael Lee : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jon Sklaroff : Again, and if we don't have standards, the Right, yeah, 

Michael Lee : that's right. And if we don't have standards, chaos, chaos, chaos, reigns, we live in, in a state of nature. 

Jon Sklaroff : I think also what we learned here is in 2028, we need to have pizza on the ballot, is what I'm hearing.

Michael Lee : Pizza for president. 

Jon Sklaroff : Pizza. You know what? Couldn't be, couldn't be worse. Couldn't be worse. John, I really 

Michael Lee : appreciate you coming on the buzz saw today. Thanks so much for being on when we disagree. 

Jon Sklaroff : Yeah, thanks for letting me have a voice and a say in this very important manner of our time. And I hope everyone listening knows New York Style Pizza is the best.

Thank you very much. 

Michael Lee : When we Disagree is recorded at the College of [00:20:00] Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse KZ and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We disagree@gmail.com.