The Channel Between Us

Julie Rose - journalist, radio host, and creator of the weekly shows Top of Mind and Uncomfy - shares the deeply personal story of her biggest regret: years of unproductive arguments with her mother over cable news. In this moving conversation, she reflects on why even the most skilled interviewers can lose curiosity when emotions and identity get tangled up at home. Julie’s honesty about what she wishes she’d asked instead offers a masterclass in empathy, humility, and learning to listen - especially when it matters most.

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Transcript

Michael Lee : [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. We've all met that person who confidently explains topics they barely understand. Maybe it's your brother-in-law lecturing about cryptocurrency. Or a coworker planning to restructure the entire company after just a few weeks on the job.

This frustrating phenomenon where incompetence breeds confidence is called the Dunning Kruger effect, and it makes productive disagreements. Surprisingly difficult. Psychologist David Dunning and Justin Krueger discovered that people performing poorly on tests consistently overestimated their performance while high performers slightly underestimated theirs.

The less someone knows about a subject, the less equipped they are to recognize their own ignorance. It's a cruel irony. You need expertise to know that you lack [00:01:00] expertise. You need to know what you don't know. This creates what researchers call, and I just adore this phrase, quote, mount stupid. The dangerous peak of confidence that comes with acquiring just enough knowledge to feel informed, but not enough to really grasp complexity.

We see it in new parents who become instant experts on child development, amateur investors who have cracked some market code or recent converts to any diet or exercise routine or lifestyle who evangelize with the fervor of the newly converted and enlightened in relationship. Dunning Kruger creates similar dynamic.

After one counseling session or self-help book, or a few tiktoks on psychology, someone might diagnose their partner with various psychological conditions like narcissism and more. A few successful home repairs. Later, someone turns someone into a construction expert who dismisses contractors' estimates.

Historical examples illuminate the pattern too. When European explorers [00:02:00] first encountered other continent continents, many confidently declared indigenous practices to be primitive without understanding sophisticated agricultural. Medical or governing systems. The truly knowledgeable aware of nuance and uncertainty often seem less convincing than confident amateurs in many cases, especially on social media.

Navigating Dunning Kruger requires humility and strategy when facing unwarranted confidence. Asking curious questions can often work better than direct confrontation. That's interesting, but how does that account for X lets people discover their knowledge gaps in their systems, knowledge gaps in themselves too, in other lives, cultivating what Socrates called, knowing what you don't know protects against overconfidence.

The more we learn about any subject. The more we should appreciate its complexity. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We [00:03:00] Disagree is Julie Rose. Julie has been a journalist for more than 20 years, including a decade of public radio reporting.

She is the host of two podcasts for the BYU Radio Network. First one's called Top of Mind, and the second one is called Un Uncomfy. Julie, tell us an argument story. 

Julie Rose : Oh, well, I'm gonna tell you a personal one. That actually is one of my greatest regrets the way I handled this, and it has also had a really profound impact.

How I interact with other people about how I do my work. So it's with my mom. I'm the oldest of five kids, you know, oldest daughters and moms. That's kind of legendary. We were really similar in a lot of ways and of course that led to conflict. But in the last, she's actually the main reason that I moved back to my hometown about.

A decade ago my parents needed some help. They were aging. My father passed, and then in the last couple of years of my mom's life, so she died in 2022. In the last few years of her life, [00:04:00] her chronic illnesses were progressing. And I was over there often caregiving in the morning before work. I'd stop in for a bit.

Often in the middle of the day for a couple of hours in the evening just to help her with kind of all the things that she needed. She was experiencing physical decline as well as, you know, like the depression and loneliness that comes with that, plus also some cognitive decline. Mm-hmm. So it was really hard for her.

It was complicated for our whole family. But I was in this perpetual conflict with her, over her news, watching habits no matter what time of day. I came over, she always had this one particular cable news channel on, and it was just this one. It was her only source of news. And this really bugged me as a journalist all day studying these big issues.

And then to walk into her house and hear, you know, what cable news shows do, especially the pundit driven hostage shows. Right? Kind of giving only one side, speaking as if that's the only legitimate side. You know, often with these like. [00:05:00] Overblown big, right? Like everybody knows what cable news does, right?

And I just, I felt like it very clearly to me was designed to make, make you feel scared or angry or superior. And I did not like the way it made me feel. And the minute I'd walk in and I'd hear that blaring out of her tv, kind of always in the background, my blood pressure would go up and I. I felt like it was in a personal affront to me, 

Michael Lee : Uhhuh, Uhhuh, 

Julie Rose : that she was consuming news like this, but I also worried about how it was affecting her.

Right? Like, we're both very anxious worriers. And so, you know, I was like, this can't be good for your, for you mom. Like, turn this off. I was always telling her in, in no uncertain terms, mom, why are you watching this? You know, they're not telling you the whole story. They're exaggerating. They're just trying to get you, you know, amped up.

You know, this is manipulative. Like stop doing this. Watch something else. She'd get defensive and then I'd get more adamant. It was deeply unproductive and I. Did it over and over and over and over again. Four years with [00:06:00] my mom. 

Michael Lee : Well, where we get our news and who we trust for information. And of course, cable TV news is such a difficult thing to have productive arguments about with family members, but especially in a.

Potentially end of life situation with your own mother. This sounds like a, a tough one. And it's also recurrent. And so then you get into these argumentative patterns and you're just kind of like, 

Julie Rose : I mean, it was in one of those things where it felt like it was just a cycle, right? Like I, the hamster wheels, I knew, my logical brain was telling me, you're not accomplishing anything here, Julie.

Is this really worth having this fight over? Is there other stuff that you could be doing? And I could not let it go. It was just like. I never really stopped to kind of question why it was, I mean, I, I suspect it has, you know, had a lot to do with my own validation. Right? Like, how could the mother of a journalist who, you know, respects her ability to like, sort of report the news in a more unbiased and, you know, kind of get to the bottom of the story and see the nuance and things, which is kind of like my whole stock in trade, right?

Like, how could my mom be such a sucker? Mm. Like it just really felt [00:07:00] personal to me in o obviously. Yeah. Totally unnecessary and unproductive ways. I see that now, 

Michael Lee : that's exactly what I was gonna ask you, which was following up on your, your line. Like you, you just couldn't let it go. And then I was gonna ask, why couldn't you let it go?

And you started to answer that question a little bit and it sounded like what you were saying was to, to rephrase was by her seeing this content, she wasn't seeing you, 

Julie Rose : right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I. My mom was my biggest fan, but she listened to my podcast to put her to sleep. 

Michael Lee : Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Well, I'm familiar with producing podcasts that help people go to sleep. 

Julie Rose : Like, I spend so much time and energy with my team trying to make compelling content. You know, top of mind in particular is a 53 minute podcast where we take one of these tough issues that people are blaring [00:08:00] about on cable news and we, we look for perspectives.

We go to so much trouble to talk to people with personal stake, skin in the game, nuanced perspectives. Uhhuh try to like present information that will, that will challenge anybody. No matter what your perspective is like, I want you to hear something that's gonna be a little outside of your worldview, a little outside of your information bubble, because that's the point, right?

I believe that in order to get to more productive, collaboration and to solve the great problems in our society, in our communities, and on the political front, like we need to understand on a deeper level where the other side, quote unquote, is coming from. Right? And you can't do that unless you're exposed to it.

But we are not wired. To like that. Mm-hmm. We're wired to shut it down, feel threatened by it, walk away from it, and you know, click away. And so so yeah, like I, here was my mom like consuming, obviously she was, she's not even. You know, she was in her [00:09:00] seventies and I, she, she wasn't even our target audience necessarily.

So why should this bother me so much? Right? Like, she was always bragging about me to everybody and telling everybody to listen to my podcast, even though I knew dang well that when she listened to it, she'd hear like the first five minutes and then she'd be out. But that was true about no matter what she listened to, right?

So it had more to do with her sleep deprivation and so forth. But I also just like fundamentally, I knew that she just couldn't conjure the mental space given all the things that she was dealing with, you know, pain. And mental cognitive decline and sleep deprivation. And so like, I get it. I got it. But it just rubbed me wrong that the, her primary source of news about the election, which at the time we were in the middle of, I mean, we went through several SS cycles while she was declining.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just, it felt like a personal affront. And ironically, I'm a very. You know, my job is to get curious about other people's uhhuh, 

Michael Lee : uhhuh life 

Julie Rose : experience and [00:10:00] motivation and incentives, and to kind of dig deeper rather than just let my base assumptions kind of run the show. And I wasn't doing that with my mom.

I, I mean, that's my greatest regret. Right? Right. So I ultimately, we ended up having this con, you know, it went over and so there were either two options right up until the end of her life. It was either. You know, me going at her about it and like trying to change the channel or turn it off or kind of be like, mom, man, you know, I don't like this stupid, you know, like grumbling, right?

Or just like silently fuming and then rejoicing when she would go down these weird. Tv, rerun rabbit holes. Like there was like six months where all she watched was Mash and then there was like six months where all she wanted to watch was Duck Dynasty. Right? Like they're just, or, or like the, the, the animal doctor.

Frontier Animal doctors. And in those moments I like, ironically, I was happier that she was down that rabbit hole. I mean, how stupid, right? Yeah. That I'd rather her not be informed about the world than be informed about the world in the way that was [00:11:00] working for her, or in the way that she could. Shoes that she chose.

I mean, it's, it's ridiculous. But yeah. Anyway, that's kind of basically how it went right up until the end of her life. And I've spent a lot of time in the last couple of years really thinking about going back over what I could have done differently and how I should have, and the thing that I never really conjured, I never bothered to do what I do in my job, which is to bring full, compassionate curiosity to the table and just try to find out if I was missing something.

I always have a blind, like we all have blind spots. I know I was missing something and in hindsight now, 'cause I can't ask her, but I can imagine a whole bunch of reasons why she was choosing to consume news from that particular cable news channel. I mean, one of them, for example, is that, you know, going back decades and decades, she'd watched this channel or consume news in that same kind of vein.

And this was just like, this was what news was to her like she was. Fully it was familiar. It's what she'd grown accustomed to. I suspect that maybe it didn't [00:12:00] make her a heart race like it did mine. She was having a totally different, it wasn't making her anxious possibly. I, I don't know, but I could imagine that 'cause she was way more accustomed to it.

The other thing I thought, you know, so there's like two other things that I could imagine. She was, you know, she had these long lonely days where she spent, she spent, she was confined to her home as her mobility declined. And that was. Really distressing for her. And I can imagine that seeing the same sort of familiar faces at the same time every day, kind of gave some shape to that.

Michael Lee : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Julie Rose : That had more to do with companionship than it really had to do with like, were they reporting unbiased truth. Right. You know? And then finally, also just the, like, the format of the news. I know she, she wanted to be informed. That gave her a sense, she'd always been a very sort of like plugged into politics.

I mean, she was a, she would campaign for candidates. She ran for office a couple of times on the school board level. Like, you know, she'd worked for a politician, a member of Congress. Like I know that she sort of was wired that way. And so I feel, I know, I think that it gave her a certain sense of [00:13:00] comfort to be informed, but I also suspect that the constant pain that she was in.

Made it hard for her to focus on the kind of news coverage that I was doing or that other outlets, like more nuanced discussion. You know, it takes, you have to kind of like this sort of simplified good guys, bad guys framing that you get in so, so much, especially on social media and in cable news. Like, there's a reason I do that and it's because it works for sound bites and to kind of, you know, the, the journalists wanna simplify the story that is.

That is something that we crave as well as just as people, you know, to kinda have that simplicity. I suspect it was just easier for her to follow than like trying to go read some big think piece on in the Economist right about, I don't know, what, whatever it was at the time, today, it might be tariffs, right?

She, she just needed to know like, who should I, like, who should I fear? Like, something about that felt, felt familiar and, and, and comforting to her. And I totally get [00:14:00] that because when I'm feeling, when things feel chaotic and I'm feeling anxious, I too crave. Simplicity, 

Michael Lee : certainty. 

Julie Rose : Yeah. 

Michael Lee : Yeah. So I get that.

Julie Rose : We could have related on that. I mean, if I'd spent any time asking her things like, Hey, what do you like about this, this host or this channel, or this show? Right. And have you always liked it? And has that, has it changed over time? And is there anything you don't like about it? And how does it make you feel?

Like I, I could have learned some things and we could have connected, 

Michael Lee : I, I'm hearing four different disputes here. There's one about journalism and how to practice it. I'm hearing one about citizenship and how to get good information and what kind of stories we seek out about the world and who we trust to give us information and how many sources you look at and do you have a kind of monogamous relationship with one that might be not so great for you?

I'm hearing a very personal one about a mom and an eldest daughter, and then I'm hearing another one about an end of life situation. Yeah. And so it seems to me that the, the kind of. [00:15:00] Really resounding message other than a great regret, is that you understood her, her watching this show to be a kind of personal, a front, and therefore you couldn't engage in the kind of compassionate curiosity, almost like a therapist that is necessary to be a great journalist 

Julie Rose : or at least.

See the humanity in her. Mm-hmm. See her as a more nuanced person than just, I mean, with the, with with the emotion that was tied up in it, and obviously the personal kind of, as we've discussed, the, the way that the, those emotions, you know, were conjured by the, like, what this meant to me personally. Yeah.

Because it was about more than just how many hours a day do you watch this channel? It was about kind of like, does this mean that you don't respect me and what I do? Right. I mean, I get it, like I've been to enough therapy that I understand how this all works, but, but I, I have learned now, I, I I've, it really is an example to me of how how quickly the des [00:16:00] assumptions and big emotions can shut off.

Curiosity and curiosity is really the only, so Monica Guzman, braver Angels, author of this great book, I never thought of it that way. You know, she talks about curiosity is really the key. It's the superpower. It is the only it's the enemy of certainty or certainty is the enemy of curiosity. And, and it's, and it is the only way to sort of cut through the, the.

All of these assumptions about, you know, oh, she's lazy, she's ignorant, she doesn't respect me, she doesn't, she believes everything that's being said. Like, all of this stuff that I, that was in my mind that I was believing, that's the story I was telling myself because my emotions and my insecurities were running the show.

And I mean, honestly, don't think any of that was true. Or at least I certainly don't know for sure. 'cause I never asked, I never tried to probe. 

Michael Lee : You started to kind of spitball a little bit, a few of the more curious questions that would proceed from perhaps more charitable [00:17:00] assumptions than mm-hmm. She's watching this because she's lazy, she's lazy, ignorant, as you said, or ignorant.

She's watching, or she hates 

Julie Rose : me. She's watching this as a 

Michael Lee : middle finger to me and, and my work and my whole profession. She's, I mean, 

Julie Rose : it's so dumb. Oh, it's so dumb. I don't, you're right. 

Michael Lee : She's watching this as a middle finger to nuance in general, in favor of certainty in a Star Wars black and white view of the universe.

But if you were to, to try to absolve yourself of this regret and say, you know, what are these, what are these curious questions that you would've asked? 

Julie Rose : Yeah. And so I kind of fantasize about this, about a conversation that I would have from her, for her with her. And I can imagine myself walking in at the end of a work day and the TV's kind of blaring, but she's sort of like in her chair kind of zoned out because she, I get very, very tired by the end of the day.

And that I, you know, that rather than kind of walk in and immediately like start fussing with things and like trying to figure out what needs to be solved and [00:18:00] also like, stewing about the TV show that I would just kind of sit down next to her and hold her hand and ask how her day went. And, and then maybe ask like, Hey, can we turn this down just a little bit?

And then I've, I've really always wondered what, oh, this is gonna make me a little emotional, but you know, just thinking about, I know you really like this channel, like, I'm, I'm, I, and, and I know that, you know, I feel like we're always kind of arguing about it, but I, I feel like there might be something I'm missing here.

I'd really like to understand you better. I don't, you know, I, I don't really care about changing your mind. I just, I, I just wanna understand better. And would you be willing to share maybe. A little bit, like try to maybe ask her, I think she, she would be immediately kind of a little on the defensive.

'cause you know, every time I brought the show up, it was always the same thing. Right. So I'd have to figure out a way to kind of cut through that and reset that, put her in a different spot. And then, and then I do think it would just be, you know. Have you always like, like as, as long as I can remember that this cable channel existed, I remember you guys watching it, you and [00:19:00] dad, and now you like, why do you watch it?

You know, what, what do you like about it? She'd probably give me answers that I know, like, oh, 'cause it aligns with, you know, they're the only ones that tell the truth or whatever. She'd probably start saying some of those things and that would make me be like, well, that's not true, and you know that, right?

It's biased and whatever. And I'd have to just kind of be like, huh, tell me more. Asking follow up questions, just doing what I do in my real job every single day in interviewing people you know, trying to understand more, not so much like, well, tell me the, the specific logical points that lead you to consume news in this way, but try to find out if there are certain, you know, how it makes her feel, what kinds of experiences she's had in her life that.

You know, makes her like, for all I know, she once had a close encounter with one of the pundits at one of these political events that she'd been to, and so she kind of feels like she has a personal connection, you know, or I don't know, right? Mm-hmm. Like I'm sure there were experiences that she'd had.

Michael Lee : Yeah. 

Julie Rose : That. Made this particular thing feel safe. Or maybe, maybe she just thought it was [00:20:00] entertaining. Maybe for all I know, she knew exactly how sort of one sided it was. And she was fine with that because she's like, ah, I'm at the end of my life. Who cares anyway, right? Like it just, I just would like to have asked her why and tell me more.

Michael Lee : Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And it's, it's always amazing to me sometimes that people are so skilled at doing something, arguing, interviewing, asking good questions, being a therapist, whatever it is. It's almost like you're so good at fighting fires outside the house or outside the family, but there's a stove fire in your own house and you're completely ill-equipped just because of the context to apply those very obvious skills to this situation that matters.

In the family. 

Julie Rose : Yeah. Yeah. Well, you just learn, right? I mean, I, I, I regret that I didn't have the chance to, that I did, I didn't, I didn't have the wherewithal to, [00:21:00] to do what I just described. 

Michael Lee : Hmm. 

Julie Rose : But I also, I mean, you know, she left this world on really great terms. With all of us in the family. And so it's not as though this is, you know, something that's gonna eat me for the rest of my life, but it is a, you know, it is a regret.

Like I just could have done better. Yeah, I did great in a lot of other ways, but I. This is kind of just one of those little like dumb things that 

Michael Lee : mm-hmm. 

Julie Rose : You know, I should have known better. I could have done better. I wish I had 

Michael Lee : Julie Rose. I really appreciate you sharing the story with us, and thank you for being on when we disagree.

Julie Rose : It's my pleasure. Thanks Mike. 

Michael Lee : When we Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse k and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We [00:22:00] disagree@gmail.com.