Being Right Versus Being Effective

What happens when a dialogue expert loses his cool? Vince Greer, Associate Dean of Students and Director of Dialogue & Belonging at Claremont McKenna College, unpacks an argument with a close friend over women’s rights that shook his confidence as a professional listener. Together they explore when neutrality stops being a virtue, how to hold space for passion without disrespect, and why being effective sometimes matters more than being right.

Tell us your argument stories!

• Email guest and topic suggestions to us at whenwedisagree@gmail.com
• Follow us on Instagram

Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. We all like to think we're rational beings who form our opinions based on the best available evidence. But here's an uncomfortable truth. We typically decide what we believe first.

Then cherry pick evidence to support it. As Paul Simon sang in the song, the Boxer, we hear what we want to hear and we disregard the rest. This mental shortcut called a confirmation bias shapes everything from our news consumption to our relationship Conflicts. Psychologist Peter Wasson demonstrated this in the 1960s with a simple.

Number puzzle sequence given the numbers two and four and six, people had to guess the rule or pattern between them. Most assumed these numbers are increasing by two and only tested sequences that confirmed their initial [00:01:00] hypothesis, but the actual rule was just ascending numbers. But people rarely tested sequences that might disprove their initial guess.

And we all do this constantly. You're convinced your teenager is irresponsible. Then you'll notice every forgotten chore while overlooking their punctual homework submissions. And think your boss is playing favorite. You'll catalog every perceived slight while dismissing evidence of fair treatment. Our brains are meaning making machines that prefer consistency over accuracy.

Social media amplifies this tendency serving us content that confirms what we already believe. But confirmation bias predates the internet by millennia. Medieval physicians convinced that bloodletting worked, noticed when patients recovered after a bloodletting, but explained away deaths as being from other causes.

Confirmation bias, whether it's old or new on the internet or in medieval times. Makes disagreements particularly intractable. Two people can witness the same event and honestly remember it [00:02:00] differently, each having unconsciously filtered the experience through their expectations. This isn't lying, it's just how memory works.

We literally, we see what we expect to see. So fighting confirmation bias requires some deliberate effort. Scientists use double-blind studies in peer review. In a daily life, we might actively seek disconfirming evidence, play devil's advocate with ourselves, cultivate friendships with people who see the world differently, talk to strangers, et cetera.

When disagreeing with someone, understanding confirmation bias helps us recognize they're not necessarily being stubborn or dishonest. They're seeing a different reality filtered through different expectations. And this awareness can transform adversarial debates into hopefully collaborative searches for the truth.

I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Vince Greer. Vince is a Chicago native who is the Assistant Vice President of [00:03:00] Student Affairs for Dialogue and Diversity at Claremont McKenna College, where he's been for about a decade.

Vince. Tell us an argument story. 

Vince Greer : Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me, Mike. I would start with one that's often lingered in my head for some time and is more recent. I'd say a couple of years ago a really dear friend of mine who I've known for well over a decade now.

We tend to have a little bit of philosophical differences around, you know. Some society topics and issues, which is totally fine and normal. But I did find myself. More recently, as I would say, even the political landscape started to heat up a bit. I felt myself responding in a way that I, I hadn't usually.

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Vince Greer : And for me, the work that I do is one that centers around dialogue, really encouraging a range of opinions and perspectives, and yet I wasn't practicing what I was preaching. I found myself having a bit more emotional responses, mostly because I, from my perspective at the time. I had made [00:04:00] clear some things and it felt like it was being undermined and I felt myself maybe pulling back to some of my, my upbringing roots, if you will, of where I grew up.

I felt myself getting a lot more aggressive than I, I felt comfortable at this point in my life. So it's an argument that sat with me because I think it brought out maybe some old roots or emotions and and I just felt like that's not the way I wanna live my life, nor that's the way I wanna respect a friend.

Michael Lee: Say more if you don't mind, about the particulars of Yes, of course. Maybe one or two of these conversations where you, where you felt like you were reverting as you put it in real time. 

Vince Greer : Yeah, so I mean, I think to get a little bit more specific you know, we had some pretty. Clear differences with regards to social political issues that centered around women and other different identities and communities.

But that one in particular was one where we, we often would fork in our, our opinions and I could be very passionate [00:05:00] about my thoughts and beliefs as he is as well. But I felt like, there was a bit of antagonism that was motivated and, and perhaps his delivery, and that, for me felt a little more personal.

And so you know, I tried to take the route initially of expressing some of those concerns and thoughts and we had a productive conversation, but we would yet find ourselves back in this, this, this same sort of spiral cycle again. And so I found myself raising my voice a lot more and, and getting a lot more, animated and passionate in, in ways that I'm like, Hey, we're we're both grown men there. There's no reason I should be talking to you in this way, and I know you wouldn't want me. You know, I wouldn't want that in return either. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. And this is about, to be clear, at least in this instance, is about women's role in politics or abortion rights, or, yeah, yeah, 

Vince Greer : yeah.

So it to be specific women's rights across the board. So whether in politics in the household. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Vince Greer : Yeah. We just had a, I would deem his approach as a [00:06:00] bit more traditional, old fashioned. Gotcha. And you know. My words, no one else is perhaps a bit outdated. You know, where it felt you know, as I would characterize as a bit more misogynistic and I didn't want to call him that because, oh, you know, I didn't wanna revert to, to name calling, but.

At the same time you know, this was constantly an issue and, you know, we have a, a pretty close friend circle. It's about a half dozen of us. And so we're regularly interacting and talking about the different things in the world. And you know, as headlines emerge, different rulings, a lot of different things would come out.

You know, we will find ourselves on a polar opposite end of our opinions around these things. And like I said, what started out as feeling a bit, you know, maybe just contentious lightly has started to heat up a lot more. And I'm just like, Hey, we're, we're friends. We, we don't have to go this route.

But yet I felt myself maybe being baited a little. 

Michael Lee: You and you felt yourself being responding differently. You said maybe you were being baited a [00:07:00] little bit, that there was some escalation and purposeful provocation. What the literature talks about is conflict profiteering. I like that. Going on. And, and yet at the same time, your, your work on campus and your, your research, your practice as a professional encourages different points of view and you Exactly.

You said you've are experiencing some tension between what you were practicing and what you were preaching. I wanna pause on that for a second. So, let's just talk about the emotionality and the, the voice raising. Yes. Is, is it when you, when you are encouraging students or you're researching, you're practicing encouraging different points of view.

Just speaking as a professional, how do you handle the role of emotion and voice raising? 

Vince Greer : That is a critical turning point. Oftentimes I try to frame these types of conversations because they're so delicate in a way that it, it's critical to first of all enter into with a level of intentionality.

What are you hoping to get out of [00:08:00] this? If you're looking for a dialogue, let's stay in a space of dialogue. And that does require a level of intentionality and how we ask the types of questions, how we're listening how we respond to things that we disagree with. And so. If I find myself raising my voice or starting to shift where it feels a bit more aggressive, I know that that dialogue is now shifted at least to a space of debate, perhaps, or even more escalated tensions which isn't gonna be productive for either party.

So these are the moments where you know, I have to apply that in my own life. And I felt myself you know, not practicing what I preached in that moment. And it, it sat with me a lot because I, I can't. Say that this is something I'm really passionate about. This is work I do on a day to day. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. And 

Vince Greer : then when I'm challenged in that moment not apply those same things.

This 

Michael Lee: is utterly fascinating to me 'cause you've sketched these two vincess. Yeah, there's the kind of emotionally invested Vince who thinks, you know, here I am across from somebody who putting [00:09:00] words, you know to, to a person I've never met. But just pretending like this person is saying, you women shouldn't have the right to vote.

I find that absurd and discriminatory, and I'm gonna tell him as such, I'm gonna tell him what time it is. And then there's Profe professional Vince, who's like, no, we've approached this from a, a sober rational space of curiosity. So wouldn't wouldn't the more emotionally invested vents tell the more professionally oriented vents.

Hey, sometimes people cross a line and you need to show them, you can't suppress your emotions if they're, if they're imagining a world in which you don't even have the right to vote, or huge groups of people don't have the right to vote. 

Vince Greer : I love, I mean, I think the way you summarize it is so accurate and I mean, I felt myself in these two worlds clashing.

Mm-hmm. I love the way you sort of frame that. And what I would say is that the emotional one is one where I can still. Lean in, in a place of understanding. But I don't have to come in as hot and I, I really [00:10:00] stand by, this is a, a professional mantra of mine that I, I learned from a, a mentor pretty early in my career.

Is it more important to be right or effective? And this is a moment where those really sort of came to a head. The rubber meets the road, so to speak. And so this is a critical opportunity. Am I going to be the person that really tries to push my agenda or perspective or whatever that may be, no matter how much I may really care about that or be passionate or even perhaps think I'm right on some level, there's a friendship, there's an opportunity to better understand where this person is coming from.

I think for me, the one thing, and I'll, I'll pause for a moment that I, I, what was challenging is, is that. I don't always feel that every perspective deserves a platform, particularly when it's hateful or you know, really encourages marginalizing groups solely on the basis of their identity. So I think that was the part where the emotions started to really come out.

Michael Lee: Yeah. And, and the, I would add to the, the right or effective, and I really like [00:11:00] that question. You know, I've heard that question famously from Esther Perel who says to, to couples, right, do you wanna be right or do you wanna be married? Which is among my favorite lines. And when I'm doing this kind of work that, that you and I are engaged in, you know, I, I just adapt that to say, you know, do you wanna be right or do you wanna be in a relationship?

And that relationship could be with your roommate, with your coworkers. With your fellow citizens who you'll never meet and of course with people that you're in an immediate argument with. But the other thing, going back to kind of more emotionally invested, let's just call him for the sake of argument, kind of more righteous, Vince, right?

Yes. So righteous. Vince would also say, I think the point of this, when you, of this discussion, when you say something that is. That licenses taking away the rights or making people unsafe based on identity times tens of millions of people, right? The point is not about being right or, or effective, but it's also about, am I suppressing [00:12:00] my emotions so that you feel more comfortable in this discussion?

Am I suppressing my emotions and how monstrous I think your point of view is so that you and I can have the theater of, of a peaceful disagreement. Yeah, but really I am, what I'm doing is letting you off the hook for you not knowing the real consequences of, of these ideas in terms of people's lives, livelihoods, and emotional stability.

Vince Greer : I, I love that. And I think the other layer, 'cause these are often nuanced, right? Yeah. I think if you just hear, oh, this is just two different opinions or perspectives or Hey, we just happen to have different political ideologies or leanings, whatever it may be, right? 

Michael Lee: I like onions, you don't great. 

Vince Greer : Right? But there's often much more layers to this.

And I know this person, this is a really good friend of mine, pretty intimately. And so I know that in his case. And uniquely I can't speak for others that this is also. Connected to some deep seated trauma. Some, some really challenging [00:13:00] things that he's experienced in his life that is gender specific as well.

Mm-hmm. And so I'm, I'm not going down the, the psychologist or psychiatric route or any of those sort of things. I'm not licensed or that's not my expertise. But he shared enough with me around his childhood traumas and certain things that I do think some of this may be directly correlated. 

Michael Lee: Right.

Right. And so in those moments it's, it's easier because you are longstanding friends, right? Exactly. Perhaps easier for you to be curious. You have a little bit more knowledge. You can be sensitive to disagreements, you can be charitable and say. I know this person is not the sum total of his problematic opinions, right?

Yes. And, and our relationship is not defined by our disagreements even on important issues. So there's more to our relationship than just are we aligned politically, socially, on everything, including gender. 

Vince Greer : Yeah, I mean, there's a, a different level of grace there to that point because the relationship's been established.

And so I, I have [00:14:00] more insight in that sense. That for me does negate some of the things that are being shared, and I think that's why my emotional response and this sort of heated moment, and, and to be clear, this was probably about a two week window Okay. Where this just kept coming up. So this wasn't a one off.

This is why it sticks with me because I, I had this sort of moment afterwards of. Okay. First of all, if I'm responding like this in this way, I need to reevaluate our friendship. I need to reevaluate how I'm responding. And also, again, I wanna practice what I preach. And so this keeps happening and this is a thing, and here's an opportunity to disrupt this or do we continue this?

And so I made a decision, obviously to, to look more inwardly be more mindful of my approach, and also to take a little bit of space and time from that, that friendship. We're, we're in a much better place now. But I do think that that space was needed, otherwise, I think I would've kept reacting in that way.

Michael Lee: Your your role is, is fascinating in the sense that on campuses and in communities [00:15:00] around your college, around Claremont McKenna, you are getting folks together frequently on purpose to have difficult dialogues, right? Yes. That is a really core part of your work at Absolutely McKenna. And so you have ample opportunity to model what you preach and to practice what you preach, which is this kind of grace giving, humility, curiosity, finding a collective goal, and then working back to a set of conversational practices that enable mutual understanding, not necessarily debate or agreement and being right, but just having some curiosity and some grace for different points of view.

So that's, that's. In a setting encouraging a dynamic between two people. But what is also keeps coming up for me in this moment as we're talking about this episode and why this sticks with you. This, this individual conversation is about the dynamic between these two vincess that we keep talking about and encouraging each of these.

How do you encourage each of these vincess [00:16:00] to have grace and respect for each other? And so taking the point of view of the more righteous Vince. What can the righteous events learn from professional events? 

Vince Greer : I think the righteous events can learn the importance of patience and, and recognizing that we all had a starting point, you know?

And for some folks, you know, we are married to our perspectives. This is what we believe because of the, the world that we've lived in. And that's totally fine. But I also have to recognize that creating room for evolution. The person I am present day isn't the person I was. 10, 20, 15 years ago, whatever that may be.

And so the reality is, is that if I'm holding you to whatever standard or applying these expectations and not recognizing we're on our own journey. I'm gonna continue to react this way. I think part of that was because this person knows how passionate I am about this. This isn't just a nine to five, but I really do try to live my life around similar principles.

[00:17:00] And yet the important reminder for me is iregardless of how much you may try depending on the situation that can be challenged in it. How do you respond in those moments? I'm, I'm a big sports proponent and like, you know, it's one thing you can practice over and over and have your moves down to a T but what happens in that pressurized situation?

What happens when you're now put in a position where all of those things you practice, you have to execute it. Under pressure or in a way where you know, you're not necessarily comfortable. And that's really for me, where the execution is most necessary. So when I think about this situation it's not in a structured dialogue where we've established community guidelines and all of the necessary guardrails to have a very intentional conversation, but it's really those organic conversations that either happen in a group chat or just with friends or maybe a complete stranger for that matter.

Michael Lee: Yeah, one of the, one of the great sports lines of the 20th century, right? Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the [00:18:00] mouth by the, you know it, by the poet laureate, Mike Tyson. Everything changes. What does, what does we, we said, what does righteous Vince have to learn from professional dialogue, Vince?

And then it's, flip it. That's professional dialogue. Vince have to learn from more argumentative, righteous, Vince. 

Vince Greer : Ooh. That is a, a, a real challenging question for me in a lot of ways, but I do, what I would say is, is that I do suppress some of my passion strategically because I think I want to create a space where there's a range of opinions and perspectives that can be voiced.

Hesitation or self-censoring or a lot of things that we do for a number of reasons. And I do think as a result of that if you fully approach things from a neutrality that is just by default there are some things that can be missed along the way. And so I would say probably the more self-righteous version of myself, that [00:19:00] can be still applied professionally is to have passion conviction, but not in a way where I'm looking to tear someone apart or you know, she someone into another perspective. 'cause that is never gonna work. But there is a line there where I think I can bring a little of that passion and not just simply take a a middle ground neutral approach.

There are some issues, even like this one that we talked about that. Neutrality isn't, neutrality isn't going to be the answer. The reality is we have to take a stance. And certainly when in my case, from my perspective when we're talking about removing rights and a lot of things for folks, that's just not something that sits well with me.

Michael Lee: Yeah. And I think there could be perhaps a difference between neutrality and impartiality. Yes. From a perspective of, you know, what's, what's the best pitch you got? Like, we're still gonna call balls and strikes, but I'm willing to stand up here just to keep these sports metaphors going. I'm willing to stand up here and, and.

You know, have you pitched me some pitches? I'm gonna still try to [00:20:00] hit 'em. Right? I'm not just gonna say all pitches. All pitches are good pitches, and all pitches are created equal. No matter we're still gonna call balls and strikes, and I'm also still gonna play the game and try to hit 'em. I'm not just gonna take every pitch.

Right? And so it will still be contentious, but it'll be contentious with. Additional emphasis placed on understanding curiosity and humility with an eye towards some persuadability. I'm not just coming into this and gonna stonewall you and say, there's nothing you can say that's ever gonna change my mind.

Right? And try to humanize this disagreement and say, maybe there's something going on in your past that I don't know about that's led you to this point of view. And I'm not a computer either. I haven't just like assessed literally every study on these questions and said, well, this is the right answer, and therefore all my opinions are the, the height of rationality and all of your opinions are the height of emotionality.

Vince Greer : Yeah, I, I love all of those things are interwoven. We don't ever just fully escape it or compartmentalize. And I, you know, even in this conversation, it, you know, I found myself [00:21:00] and by my own admission, even Uhhuh, you know, compartmentalizing some of those things when there's a healthy way to involve emotions facts you know, challenge, misinformation, a lot of different things that can happen.

Respect is the one thing that can't be compromised, and I think that's the reason at its core why it's set with me and it's in such a lasting way, was because it wasn't just about the passion. It wasn't about me just raising my voice, but I knew that was disrespecting someone because of my frustrations in that moment.

And that's the one thing where the line shifts. We could be completely on whatever sort of ends of our, our opinions and perspectives, but the moment respect gets compromised. The dynamic changes completely, whether it's a relationship or even just someone you're meeting for the first time. And so I, I never wanna be in that position.

Michael Lee: Vince Greer, thank you so much for being on When we Disagree. 

Vince Greer : Yes, my pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity again, Mike and looking forward [00:22:00] to tuning in on more awesome shows as well 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunze and Lance Laidlaw.

Reach out to us at When We disagree@gmail.com.