Joe Biden

Former Congressman Joe Cunningham shares the story of how he broke ranks with his own party by calling on President Biden not to seek reelection—and the backlash that followed. From being the first Democrat in 2022 to publicly urge generational change, to his later role with the No Labels movement, Cunningham reflects on the costs of speaking out against political orthodoxy. His story raises big questions about loyalty, party power, and the limits of disagreement inside America’s two-party system.

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Transcript

When We Disagree-Joe Cunningham

Michael Lee : [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Status differences can complicate any conversation. Imagine two friends planning a road trip. One has been on dozens of cross country adventures while the other rarely ventures beyond their hometown.

The experienced traveler might dominate the planning assuming their knowledge is superior. But what if the novice has a real knack for finding hidden roadside gyms and quaint diners and cute bookstores and hitchy bars, and even more. If the conversation is tilted by perceived expertise, the trip might miss out on real fun.

This is where the concept of bracketed status differences comes in. In an ideal public sphere, theorized by many writers, citizens temporarily set aside their social rank and wealth and expertise when they [00:01:00] engage in debate. In short, they debate as equals. They show evidence rather than asserted.

Everyone's voice is treated relatively equally. That doesn't mean everyone's right, and it doesn't mean everyone's validated, but the focus shifts from who is speaking to what is being said. Think about a family gathering. Maybe there's an uncle who's a doctor and weighs in on every health related topic with authority, but the youngest cousin, fresh from her biology class brings up some research she heard in class.

In a free and fair conversation, the cousin wouldn't be casually dismissed for lacking credentials. Instead, the research will be scrutinized to see if the data holds up or if the reasoning is sound. Of course, racketing status differences is much easier said than done. Power dynamics tend to creep in automatically.

Picture a workplace meeting where a junior employee has a good groundbreaking idea. Even if it's brilliant, the CEO might [00:02:00] brush it aside while a more senior manager making essentially the same suggestion, could get applause when status trump's substance. Good ideas get lost, but when people consciously create a space where status is bracketed, conversations can change.

It's not about pretending that we don't have different backgrounds and experiences. It's about refusing to let those differences hijack collective decisions. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Joe Cunningham.

Joe served in the US House of Representatives from 2019 to 2021. He is also the former Democratic nominee for governor in South Carolina, and he is currently the owner of Joe Cunningham Law. Joe, tell us an argument story. 

Joe Cunningham : Jump right into it, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, we're talking about on the way over here today, uh, about an argument story and.

I think the one that's [00:03:00] been stuck in my mind for the last couple years and, and coincidentally it's an argument still happening within the ranks of the Democratic Party, is what happened, uh, in 2024 with Joe Biden. Hmm. Um, when I was running for. Governor and of South Carolina as a democratic nominee back in 2022, I flipped to New York, did an interview on CNN and was the first person to come out and say that Joe Biden should not run for reelection.

Uh, this was based upon discussions I've had with people on the ground in South Carolina, democratic party chairs, everyone essentially agreeing that it'd be time for him to step aside and that we need new generational leadership and new blood. And so. Obviously there's, there are people who disagreed. Um, when we were up there in New York after coming off the, uh, live segment on CNN, people were blowing up my phone, blowing up my general consultant's phone, you know, press secretary [00:04:00] for Biden, like all these people within this, this national orbit who were, uh, upset.

And, and it's not like I said anything disparaging. It. It is a very, um. Southern way of saying if we disagree. Right. Um, so you just said he shouldn't, shouldn't seek another term. Yeah. He shouldn't seek another term. It wasn't any indictment on, on him or who, who he is or who he was. That was back in 2022.

And now fast forward, I think in the early part of 2024 when Biden had already announced his run for reelection. And I stood in the same place and I came out in the Post and Courier, which is Charleston's paper with an op ed announcing my, um, position, new position as the national director for a group called No Labels, who was seeking to introduce.

A third option for those at the time that were unhappy with the Biden Trump rematch. Um, you know, after putting that op-ed, op-ed [00:05:00] out, I received even more criticism from friends, from family, um. Old colleagues, um mm-hmm. You know, lost law, lost law friends, uh, in that, you know, I mean, and, and, and from all ranks too, right?

The DNC chairs reaching out, um, expressing his frustration. And it's a moment when, you know, when we talk about, when we disagree, it's a, it's, it's the one that comes to mind for me. And I think that the takeaway. Is, you know, there's not always a, um, there always a common ground we agree on, you know? Mm-hmm.

And some arguments will, will, will meet the inflection point where it's like, Hey, we, we're not gonna agree on this and I'm not gonna win you over my side. You're not gonna win me over yours. Um, and that's how sometimes arguments end. 

Michael Lee : This strikes me as a, a big common theme. Um, which is about Biden, the person in 22, and then again in 24, but then with [00:06:00] the no labels position, also about the party.

And so I can imagine those who are Biden loyalists in 22 saying, what are you doing? Stepping Outta line. But then I can also imagine them in 24 saying, okay, well now you're, you're. Leaving, you're excommunicating yourself from the tribe. So let's go back to the 22 position. How do you think that your argument that Biden and he himself hinted that he wouldn't seek another term when running in 20, so the 22 position that you made doesn't seem that far out of step at that point, even if you were the first person to say it in 22, um, how do you think that that position has aged?

When you think back on your argument in 22 be better 

Joe Cunningham : than 

Michael Lee : Biden? 

Joe Cunningham : Uh, no offense, um, no. It, it, it's, it is aged pretty well. Um, and, and again, it's not like something that I just kind of came to, or that I thought of. Uh, I launched a statewide tour back in, I think 2022 when I was running for governor. Uh, maybe even earlier, maybe it was [00:07:00] 2021, late 2021, but where I wanted to go to all 46 counties and, and I could say, and, and let's take a step back and remember how pivotal of state South Carolina is in choosing democratic presidential nominees.

Right. The first in the south or maybe the first nation, depending on Yeah. Which way the, the rules are interpreted on any given cycle. Um, but definitely the most diverse early state, right? I, I can say with the utmost confidence today, nobody spoke to more Democrats during that period of time than me in South Carolina.

Um, and I would go to these counties. It, the party chairs even said that they didn't want Biden to run for reelection. And so the disconnect I felt, and the numbers showed it to right. Two thirds of Democrats thought that Biden should not seek reelection. And it just struck me like, how is it. That so many Democrats are saying this and thinking this, and these polls are slapping people right in their face.

However, no [00:08:00] Democratic elected officials or no Democrats running for office, have the fortitude to step up and say this. Like, where, where, where is the, yeah. 435 members of the house, you know, half or whatever are Democrats. None of the 200 plus. Come out and say what two thirds of their own voters think and feel, and we know why.

I mean, I know why. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm, you know, happy to go into that. But, um, so that, that's what kind of led me to kind of step out and, and voice that opinion and voice that. 'cause I feel like, like it was important, not just, not just to get out into the, to the, um. Conversation, but because at that time in 2022, there was still enough runway.

To make a change. When, when, when he stepped aside in late 2024, Kamala took over. I mean, just did, nevermind what you might think about Kamala as a candidate, uh, or, or a [00:09:00] person or whatever. Um, there was just a very limited amount of runway for someone to launch the type of campaign. Get to know voters Yeah.

And earn their trust. 

Michael Lee : Yeah. Historically unprecedented in the modern age of political campaigns. Monday morning quarterbacking this thing well after the election, how do you think that process should have gone? So obviously the Biden loyalists were going to keep him from stepping down until he had already secured an unopposed nomination.

But if you had, if you position would've won, let's say in January of 24 instead of June of 24, is the election outcome different? I, 

Joe Cunningham : I, I don't know. Um, y you know. If I had my druthers, like, you know, just fully Monday morning quarterbacking this Uhhuh Biden Janov, uh, declared to run for reelection. He should have been the bridge to a new generation of leadership.

As he once promised, there would've been a full primary contest, full primary, you know, ha have, you know, made the best person win and have, you know, democratic party has a, a good bench. I think a lot of [00:10:00] that bench has been tarnished through this, uh, process with Biden. And I think anybody who's. And this is my opinion, obviously, uh, which what you here for if you're still tuning in.

That's right. I think anybody who, who's, who is tangential to Biden's sphere of influence bears some responsibility for what transpired. And all these, you know, front runners or names are being floated, you know, um. Uh, who was it? Oh, it was Tim Waltz who's coming down to speak to South Carolina Democratic Party for their annual big dinner.

Um, obviously because it's an important state, a lot of these national leaders can be flocking to our state here in South Carolina, and these are questions that need to be, need to be answered. So, going back to the original question, sorry. Um, he should have run, he should have opened it up, but when as he stayed in, obviously my preference would've been for him to get out as soon as possible.

Hey, wait till the last minute, like he [00:11:00] did. Um, I would've still liked to have seen some type of mini primary or some type of process where people can actually vote. And participate in democracy. I mean mm-hmm. Here we were barnstorming the country saying we're, we're running to save our democracy. Ra, you know, waiting, you know, running to Trump's gonna end our democracy.

At the same time, we're telling voters that, no, look, we, we, we got this. We'll tell you who your nominee is gonna be. We're gonna tell you who is best for you. Yeah. I mean, that's the antithesis of, of democracy. So I think we really, not only, obviously, you know, going back, we know. What the result was with Harris.

But even beyond that, the damage that was done by, um, essentially, uh, the coronation instead of a nomination on Harris, uh, did a, it, it eroded. Mm-hmm. So much trust between the voters and the Democratic party. 

Michael Lee : I'm curious about. [00:12:00] Launch of No Labels. Third option in 24. And your pronoun usage consistently as we've been talking it about the Democratic Party, has been about we.

And so between the No Labels third option and talking about Democrats in a we sense, where do you stand now? 

Joe Cunningham : Well. I'm a private citizen now, right? Um, I'm not, I'm not running for anything. I, I've got my frustrations with demo. I'm a lifelong democrat, you know, and I grew up in far western Kentucky where the Democratic Party has done so much for, uh, rural voters and has helped lift up, uh, people in the lower socioeconomic class.

Um, I'm very frustrated with the party's refusal to acknowledge mistakes made and refusal to, to right the wrongs. Um, and people ask me all the time, you know, jumping in this race here in South Carolina's first Congressional district or any future races, [00:13:00] um, I, my beliefs in my values haven't changed. Um, like most people.

Anxiously awaiting to see whether or not that the party can pull itself out and whether or not your voices like mine still have a place. Um, you know, because I spent, again, I spent a lot of time talking about Biden and talking about where the missteps have been and what's ironic is as this autopsy unfolds the Democratic party, none of the folks who were vocal from the beginning, you know, Dean Phillips is a good friend of mine who ran for President against Biden.

Um. The guy should have a, have a front row seat in these discussions and should have some input mm-hmm. As to how the party has disaffected so many people and so many voters. And so if it's gonna be the big tent party, it's gotta, it's gonna encompass the views that, that may not, um, be too comfortable to embrace.

Michael Lee : What did you learn about fighting with an [00:14:00] institution as large as a political party? 

Joe Cunningham : You know, somebody told me, um, the Democrats and Republicans are the two biggest gangs in the United States, and I felt every bit of that, um, you know, being part of no labels, it really, um, and, and trying to get ballot access, right.

Because a lot of people say, you know, you run a third party, run a, you know, running for president. It ain't so easy getting ballot access, you know, in 50 different states. Um, I is, you're, it's like practic and law in 50 different states, different jurisdictions, you know, some people require signatures, some, some people require, you know, uh, meetings and caucuses and, and things like that, and nominations.

Um, so, and then on top of that, you also have the forces and the undercurrents working against you. Mm-hmm. And going back to Dean Phillips, this is a guy. Democrat serving a, you know, a, a current member of Congress who was running at the time, a Democratic member, [00:15:00] and you had Democrats throwing him off the ballot in states like Florida and North Carolina, refusing to hold a primary.

Um, even when they feel like, you know, Biden is our man. He's our, he's our choice. Uh, he's a current president. Yes. That, that should afford him a certain level of respect, but, but not to totally undermine the actual democratic process. And so witnessing some of those things firsthand and then watching the, the, the, the media kind of downplay it or even bury it in certain, some circumstances really.

Um, opened up my eyes to this whole notion that, you know, as a, again, as a lifelong Democrat thought, we stood on these, we, we carried this mantle of protecting democracy. This was our thing. Um, and to see instances like that, uh, less than honorable, uh, means trying to, um, attack your access to the ballot, which is a constitutional right, [00:16:00] really kinda wore on me.

Michael Lee : Imagine it did, and I've heard others talk about third party access as being very much a rigged game, to your point about the gang influence. 

Joe Cunningham : Well, we heard, you know, we heard Bernie Sanders, uh, you know, screaming by it in 2016. And you know, at time I was one of those who's like, Bernie, you know, Bernie's just upset and he's just, you know, he's losing, he's crying and like, then you get, then you can become closer to.

This process and you watch it unfold and you're in meetings with attorneys or Yeah, with ballot signature gatherers and, and you realize, wow, this, you know, this is very hard. But, um, people are, are making it harder than it has to be while at the same time taking away people's rights. 

Michael Lee : I remember arguments from Perot and and Nader for those of a certain generation making similar kinds of cases.

And it seems, and this is where I wanna conclude, is to talk about these as institutions from an institutional self preservation, limiting the Republicans And [00:17:00] Democrats might not agree on much, but they certainly agree on they should be the only two games in town. 

Joe Cunningham : Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's a binary system.

Right now and it's hard to break through. If there's ever a time for something like that opportunity like this, it was with the Biden Trump rematched. The, the numbers were there. You know, at the end of the day, we, we, we pulled down that, that project simply 'cause we couldn't find some, and we, we said from the onset rolling a run a candidate, if they have a pathway to victory and we believe they can win.

If, if we can't find somebody that has the, what we believe, the spark to ignite a. Uh, broader discussion, then, you know, we won't do it. And so we ultimately pulled it down. Mm. Um, we made pretty damn far in the process. Um, and ultimately it wasn't the Biden Trump rematch, it was the Kaa Trump and people's feelings started soften.

Like they, they can make a easier decision one way or another. 

Michael Lee : Concluding coming back to the person and the party. One of the phrases I love about [00:18:00] American politics that I consistently debate, so I offer this more as fodder and less as truth, which is that when it comes to presidential politics, Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line.

And this is to me, is the irony of the Biden administration. 'cause you stretch it back with Democrats through Clinton, right from Kennedy. Arguably Carter in 76, certainly Clinton in 92 and 96. Then of course Obama in 2008, 2012 is a really good case to be made that these are not party creatures necessarily that are being elected.

These are forces of personality who are reshaping the party as they know it, especially in the case with Clinton, especially in the case with Obama. And so the argument that they've. Democrats have fallen in love is pretty true there. Biden is the exception of any president in my lifetime, maybe any president since the invention of television reshaped American politics.

He was more a creature of his party in the White House than anybody else, right? And so he has really conservative views on X, Y, and Z, abortion, et cetera, in the seventies. 'cause his party did, he changes that he moved as [00:19:00] his party moved. And yet, as you stress, he's decidedly the most anti-democratic person in a way.

Because as you said, a lot of Democrats didn't want him to continue going in 24, and he did. And so the irony of the Biden legacy for me is the most pro party, anti fall in love person that we've had as a person to his, you said, kind of bucked the party consensus to seek or to, to prolong his term and end to 24.

Joe Cunningham : Yeah. I mean. People remember how you leave, right? Mm. Um, and you know, my dad always told me the most important part of being somewhere is knowing when to leave. If Biden had, if Biden Biden had some successes, and I was never disrespectful about the, the wins that he had, but if he had simply honored his word and decided to move on.

But there's something, you know, and I've been there, I've been in office before. I know how I can get comfortable. I know that, you know, uh, you get accustomed to that and I don't. Again, I'm sure there's gonna be more that [00:20:00] comes out as to how and why that decision to run for re reelection was made. But, um, unfortunately, despite his successes, this is how he's gonna be remembered and it's not gonna be, um, viewed favorably overall.

Michael Lee : People remember how you leave. 

Joe Cunningham : That's right. Does that, does that mean it's my time to leave? 

Michael Lee : Joe Cunningham, thanks so much for being on when We 

Joe Cunningham : Disagree. Thanks for having me. 

Michael Lee : When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Ks and Lance Laidlaw.

Reach out to us at when we disagree@gmail.com.