Faith

Lisa Silvestri, a professor at Penn State University, reflects on the deep emotional stakes of political disagreement, describing her post-2024 election disillusionment as a kind of heartbreak rooted in love for her country. Drawing from her upbringing in a loud Philadelphia household, she sees conflict not as dysfunction but as a sign of care—a refusal to disengage. Her hope persists. For her, choosing vulnerability over cynicism is essential to living fully and resisting the temptation to turn away from those we love, even when they vote differently.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Why does access to education matter so much in public debates? Think of an ideal public sphere, a space where people come together to discuss issues freely and equally.

Michael Lee: It's a nice thought, but the tricky part is ensuring people have relatively equal access to that conversation. Historically that hasn't been the case. Education plays a massive role in determining who gets a voice, the early if flawed examples of democratic culture. The famous debates in high society, Parisian salons during the enlightenment, for example, were gathering spaces for vibrant discussion, but the guest lists were far from inclusive.

Michael Lee: Without educational access, even the brightest minds couldn't participate fully in shaping public discourse. The same pattern continued for [00:01:00] centuries where literacy tests and limited schooling suppressed participation. This issue affects the public sphere, but it also affects our personal relationships as well.

Michael Lee: How we talk, what we talk about, who gets to talk and so forth. Think about a group chat or a family discussion where certain voices always seem to dominate. Maybe it's a sibling who's read everything, who's had a lot of school and confidently states their opinions while other family members who haven't had the same exposure or schooling stay very quiet.

Michael Lee: Or perhaps a friend dismisses your take on immigration by claiming that you don't understand the issue like they do because they study the in school. Even in our most personal spheres, unequal access to knowledge can create imbalances in who gets heard. Now, this doesn't mean that we need to issue diplomas to participate in dinner table conversations, but recognizing these educational divides can help us foster more open conversations.[00:02:00] 

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative. At the College of Charleston, our guest today on When We Disagree is Lisa Silvestri. Lisa is a communication scholar at Penn State University. Her most recent book is Piece by Piece, risking Public Action, creating Social Change.

Michael Lee: Lisa, tell us an argument story. 

Lisa Silvestre: Well, I think, um, on November 5th, I found myself in disagreement with. My fellow citizenry. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: Um, and so I, I'm still, so what are we at Dec? We're in December now. I'm still kind of grappling with, um, with this disagreement. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm lucky I grew up. Not thinking disagreement was a, was too bad of a thing.

Lisa Silvestre: Um, I am a [00:03:00] Philadelphia Italian, and so that's just communicating, um, conflict. Conflict was viewed as like a, an opportunity to like revise and edify your own kind of position and, uh, the way you're gonna move forward. 

Michael Lee: Well, let's pause on that for a moment, if you don't mind. Yeah. A Philadelphia Italian.

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah. And 

Michael Lee: then the, the kind of tacit cultural position is what towards conflict. 

Lisa Silvestre: Um, that it's not a big deal. Like, it's like you, like disagreement is part of life. And, uh, you know, my, my parents have been married for over 50 years, um, which would probably be surprising to outside observers because like.

Lisa Silvestre: Uh, question, like where the car keys would start, like a explosive argument. Um, and so I kind [00:04:00] of grew up in that culture of just, um, I had a therapist in my thirties tell me, um, it's just passion. Okay. Like you're just passionate people. 

Michael Lee: How did they get past that, like the screaming and yelling about the car keys?

Lisa Silvestre: Well, it goes zero. It goes zero to 60 and back down it. It's that quick. It's just like this, um, it, you know, it's just big feelings in like this, you know, a loud Italian household. And I remember going away to college and coming home from college, and so I went away. And K kind of got used to like a more measured way of engaging with people.

Lisa Silvestre: And I came home for like, you know, Thanksgiving or Christmas, whenever college kids come home. And I remember being like, dad, like why? It doesn't have to be like this, like all the screaming all the time. And he is like, what we're communicating, he is like, it would be worse if we weren't talking. You know, 

Michael Lee: is it just a comfort level [00:05:00] with, is it just a comfort level?

Michael Lee: And I, I want to turn to your, the disagreement with the electorate in a moment, but this is fascinating. Which is one, if it goes zero to 60, what keeps it from going? I. To 70 or one 20. In other words, where is the ceiling that mm-hmm. Prevents anger from becoming rage. And then the second one is how, how does it come back down so quickly without there being resentment?

Michael Lee: Uh, that builds over time about like, well, you said this and that was so asymmetrical to what I said, and then you're treating me unfairly, or you called me a name. Mm-hmm. Or just to sort of water off a duck's back, like, well, whatever. Let's just go to dinner. 

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah. Um, 

Michael Lee: so what prevents, what presents, what prevents anger in a moment, from becoming resentment in a further moment?

Lisa Silvestre: Hmm. Um, I think it's like, this sounds so basic, but I think it's love. 

Michael Lee: Hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: Um, it's like this, um, [00:06:00] like an acceptance that this person is, uh, has dimension and shading and, um. That you are with that person for better or for worse, and that this is like a for worse moment. Um, you know, my dad did say like at one point, I think B before I got married, that like the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

Michael Lee: Yeah. I've heard that line. 

Lisa Silvestre: And so it's like when you. Like stop talking. When you stop engaging, when you stop. Um, like being frustrated and furious. Yeah. Um, it's almost like you are detached and that the person you've kind of like cut them loose. Right. But like, and I think, you know, [00:07:00] um, I think that any.

Lisa Silvestre: Relationship is going to ac accumulate some level of resentment. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, and, and like we can s we can graft this onto like the collective, since I mentioned the electorate. Mm-hmm. I'm in love with this country. I'm in love with it and it drives me crazy. Crazy and I feel a lot of resentment and like that's part of what like inspired the, the book that I just wrote is that I had a daughter in 2018, my first time being a mother, and I would listen to the news and it would make me irate because this is not the world that I wanted for her.

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. Do you think it drives you [00:08:00] crazy? Because you have so much hope. 

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah. 

Michael Lee: In other words, if you didn't and, 

Lisa Silvestre: and love, right? Like that's what it is, is like I, yeah. Yeah. Like you, when you're in a relationship with someone you love, whether it's like a, you know, one person or the entire like country of people, you want them to be the best version of themselves.

Lisa Silvestre: Mm-hmm. And so they just. Can real like you, you see the potential. You see like, God, we're better than this. Like, you know, come on. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. I guess that's the question right? Is, is what? On what basis do you have this kind of a hope? And I ask this in the spirit of playing devil's advocate, but I also ask it with some genuine kind of Gen X cynicism that comes up for me.

Michael Lee: Kind of like, well, what are you gonna do? You know this look at, [00:09:00] look at how horrible. Things have been in the past, and you know, I, I can certainly think of this in, in relationships too, in more personal or romantic relationships when you've just sort of like given up, but you're still there and you're like, well, you know, what are you, what are you gonna do?

Michael Lee: What's really the upper limit of how great this, this thing's really gonna get? And so you, you find yourself, and then you're protected by that cynicism too, so that when there's bad news in our. Personal romantic relationship that you're still kind of kicking the can down the road. Something bad happens, your your, your armor's up and you think, well, if this thing's not, not even that good in the first place.

Michael Lee: And so I'm, I'm unsurprised and cynical. And the same is true with if an election doesn't go your way or a news cycle doesn't go your way. So, long story short question is, on what basis is your hope for the country to be the best version of itself? Grounded.

Lisa Silvestre: Well, gee, you're a ray of sunshine, aren't ya? Um, I don't know. Now, now I've, after like two minutes of talking to a [00:10:00] Gen Xer, I've lost my millennialist uh, belief. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. This is some of that Philadelphia conflict you were talking about coming by. Yeah, 

Lisa Silvestre: yeah. No, this is it. Yeah. Why do I keep hoping? I mean, maybe you could just feel like, is she just an idiot?

Lisa Silvestre: Um, 

Michael Lee: that's, that's not what I.

Lisa Silvestre: But I think it's because I also, I've seen what we're capable of on the other side, Uhhuh and I also, um, push back against the tendency to create a, um, shield of cynicism around my heart, because that's not fully living. 

Michael Lee: Say more about that. What do you, why is that not fully living? 

Lisa Silvestre: Um,

Lisa Silvestre: because vulnerability is how, is [00:11:00] so central to our humanity. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: Um, and it hurts like hell. Um, but that's at the end of the day, all we have. I was walking by a park bench outside the library and it was a dedicated park bench and it had the woman's name, and after it it said, wife, mother, daughter, sister, and friend.

Lisa Silvestre: And, um, you know, as a rhetorician I'm like, huh, that's interesting. Okay. That's the order. Mm-hmm. 

Michael Lee: Is 

Lisa Silvestre: that 

Michael Lee: the order? The order, yeah. Is the ranked, is this the ranked order? 

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah. I didn't know, you know, I didn't, in no particular order, didn't say that, but I, but it did occur to me that all of those are just relationships.

Lisa Silvestre: And so at the end of the day, that's all we have is [00:12:00] relationships. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: And so you get nothing from. Keeping one foot back. I guess. 

Michael Lee: Let's, let's talk about some of the things you said about your personal relationships in this kind of the, the Philadelphia Italian conflict template that you were talking about earlier, and then apply those to your frustrations with.

Michael Lee: The electorate. And so earlier you were talking about in these kinds of relationships, conflict oriented relationships when you were a kid, that screaming can be a sign of caring. Even loving that silence can be deeply unloving. That resentment is inevitable in these kinds of relationships. All of those, I presume, and I would defend, can be true for our social and our political relationships as citizens, and certainly in households and romantic partnerships.

Michael Lee: But there's also a flip side, which is where part of your frustration comes from, I presume, which is [00:13:00] you voted one way and 77 million people. Or however many voted a different way. Mm-hmm. The election didn't go the way you wanted it to, but now you are vulnerable to their governing instincts. Mm-hmm. And you say vulnerability is central to our humanity, but you're obviously frustrated and somewhat fearful about the kind of vulnerability that you're now faced with.

Lisa Silvestre: Mm-hmm. 

Michael Lee: And there was something deeply inhuman about being vulnerable to a group of people that you don't wanna be vulnerable to. And so what are you to do with this internal conflict about, about your ambivalence, about vulnerability, vulnerability as an expression of your authentic self and your relationship of vulnerability in a power position that you don't particularly like and find somewhat dangerous or precarious?

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah, I mean, I, I certainly don't feel good. Um, I. I think it's, it's similar to this. I don't know, like screaming is carrying [00:14:00] is, is like tough way to like, uh, reduce that down. But feel free to edit that. 

Michael Lee: That was just my on the fly Glo, I mean, 

Lisa Silvestre: I mean, I think it just means engagement, right? Like I'm not. You don't turn away, right?

Lisa Silvestre: Like you don't give up, um, on, on the people that you love. And, um, map mapping that onto the folks who didn't vote the way I voted, I can't give up on them. Sometimes I'm tempted. Believe me, I looked at Fulbrights in other countries. I've thought, I've thought about doing the Gen X, like hands thrown up in the air.

Lisa Silvestre: I'm outta here. Um, but I can't, I can't do that. Yeah. And I think about my daughter. I was, I got, she's learning to read and so I got the early readers Star Wars books and so it kind of just introduces you to the characters and the larger, like [00:15:00] plot flow. And I closed the book. And um, I also have a three-year-old son.

Lisa Silvestre: I said, you know, who are your favorite characters? And of course my son says Chewbacca. 'cause he's, everyone loves Chewy. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. That checks out. 

Lisa Silvestre: And my daughter, who I thought would say Princess Leia, 'cause she's six and princess, you know, she says, Darth Vader. And I said, what? And she said this, Mike, because he remembers how to be good.

Michael Lee: Whoa. What a line. 

Lisa Silvestre: What a line. What a line. He remembers how to be good. And so, I mean, that's love, that's like pure, just love and you know, coming from the city of brotherly love, 

Michael Lee: nice time. 

Lisa Silvestre: Like why, you know, screaming is a sign of caring or whatever, [00:16:00] however you said that. Like it isn't motherly love, right?

Lisa Silvestre: It isn't like, oh honey, I love you. Whatever you do, and I think you're great and I'm gonna hang it on the refrigerator. It's brotherly love. It is a tough like, come on man. Like it is a tough, like, I'm gonna give you a noie, I'm gonna punch you in the arm. I, you know, like. I want you to be better, right? Like, that's brotherly love.

Lisa Silvestre: And, um, I think that like, there's something gritty to that. And, uh, I, I think that the division that we're experiencing as a country scares me the most because we're turning away from each other. We're disengaging, we're not. Um, we're not duking it out in, um, 

Michael Lee: yeah, 

Lisa Silvestre: in, in, in meaningful engaged like [00:17:00] ways where it is the presumption of love is there.

Lisa Silvestre: We are turning away, we are throwing our hands up and saying like, they just don't get it. Oh. You know, the liberals and the conservatives and like, that's just how they are and whatever, and we're just gonna have to ride out this four year storm. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: And like that, that's what breaks my heart, is like uhoh, this is the sign of an end of a relationship.

Lisa Silvestre: Mm. 

Michael Lee: I haven't heard the word noogie in a long time, so thank you for that. Um, I, the two things that you said most recently that really strike me is you don't give up on people you love and then your daughter's line. That Darth Vader remembers how to be good. And what I'm interested in hearing you talk about is as that applies to your political opponents, you have a kind of [00:18:00] faith, I'm, what I'm hearing is this abiding faith that you love your opponents and that you have a hope that they remember.

Michael Lee: How to be good. And what I'm curious about is to talk about that kind of idea of remembrance that you attribute to them, and whether you have a fundamental, they have a fundamental disagreement with you about what goodness is. Hmm.

Michael Lee: In other words, what I'm feeling just to narrate it, this show's not about me, but I wouldn't do this show if I didn't have an abiding faith in the process of argument, debate, dialogue, to, to strengthen and rehabilitate relationships. And I do have, as I mentioned earlier, a, a cynicism and a, and a fascination with the ways in which people withdraw from their political and personal relationships.

Michael Lee: And so I wrote a whole book. About the history of secessionist and separatist communities in the United States who threw their hands up and said enough of this. And tried to, in some [00:19:00] cases, fully leave in a legal sense, in other cases, just sort of self-segregate off into these communes mm-hmm. And silos.

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. And get away from it all out in the hinterlands. And so I do have a fascination with, with both like kind of a hopefulness, but also this, we're just calling it Gen X. So I'll run with that as kind of Gen X cynicism of, well I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna leave, you know. This is not worth my time anymore.

Michael Lee: You have, you don't have, at least not in this interview, you don't have nearly the, that, that level of cynicism that I'm, uh, that I have in me. And so talk about that, that line. He remembers how to be good as it applies to our present day polarized political climate. 

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I felt myself bristle at, um, when you framed up the question because you use the language of opponent.

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Silvestre: I don't think of them as opponents. Hmm. Um, I don't, I guess I don't put ourselves, I don't put [00:20:00] myself in like a, um, a cage match with the folks who. Um, like politically disagree, is that I think I'm always hopeful that, um, maybe we could agree. Um, and, and like, I, um, 

Michael Lee: what are they if they're not opponents?

Lisa Silvestre: I, they're, I think that they're people who are mixed up. 

Michael Lee: Oh. 

Lisa Silvestre: Um, and, and who are afraid 

Michael Lee: mixed up and afraid. 

Lisa Silvestre: The reason that we have a different idea of what is good. Is, I think precisely it, it is fear based. You know, I live in central PA now and I'm surrounded by Amish communities. And when all of this was going down, like I said, I do, I mean, it's natural to have this like, escape, like, [00:21:00] um, and we ha were, uh, coincidentally having some work done on our house and we had Amish, um, gentlemen come and work on our house.

Lisa Silvestre: And I said, Hey, um, like if one wanted to join, asking for a friend, hypothetically, um, like, how could I get, get in there? And, and they laughed and I don't, I mean, I guess they have like some sort of year I. Probationary probationary period or something where like, you know, it's all dependent on that. But I'm unlike church and elders and stuff, I don't think I would make a very good Amish woman at all for a lot of reasons.

Lisa Silvestre: However, how are your churning 

Michael Lee: skills? 

Lisa Silvestre: I'm not a good trainer. My best gets don't rise. Um, so, but I did have that thought of like, I'm just gonna escape. I'm gonna join an Amish community. They never go to war. Right. Like, this is, that'll be great. But they're [00:22:00] like, it's not as if they're disconnected, right?

Lisa Silvestre: They have to trot their horses down our highways. They have to, um, drink water that we've contaminated. We, they ha like we are, we are tethered to one another like it or not. 

Michael Lee: Uh, last question and then just to focus in on the Amish and, and how you were talking about your, your people you disagree with about politics, whether they're, they're people you're fighting or your opponents or, or others.

Michael Lee: I was struck with, with this line that they, they do what they do because they're mixed up and afraid. Yeah. Do you feel that way about all of them? Do you feel that way about the Amish? That's why they believe, what they believe is because they're mixed up and afraid. 

Lisa Silvestre: Yeah, I, if there's a thesis statement to the Bible, of course I'm, you know, always looking for a thesis statement as a professor, it is, do not be afraid.

Lisa Silvestre: Do not be [00:23:00] afraid. Um, and. Like over and over that some variation of that line is repeated and it comes from this thing like, this is what Jesus was all about. Abundance, man, there's plenty I, there's enough fishes, I'll turn water to wine. Like we've got it all. We got it all. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Lisa Silvestre: And like that's, that is liberty. That is liberty and justice for all. It's just, um, there's something so liberating in, in just walking in faith and like I. Um, I don't know. I mean, I didn't wanna turn this into like a kind of podcast, but I think like there's something to it. Um, that when you are fearful, you [00:24:00] become very small minded.

Lisa Silvestre: Um, when you are worried about like resource management. Um, and those are real material constraints. Right. Like we, you know, but if you can figure out a way to act as if, um. And live like, I mean, this is what children are all about. Like I, you know, I have two cookies, you have zero cookies. I'll give you one of my cookies.

Lisa Silvestre: Like, it's so obvious to them. Mm-hmm. That we do get so mixed up along the way that we forget what it is we're doing here. 

Michael Lee: Well said. Lisa Silvestri, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Lisa Silvestre: You are welcome. It was a pleasure. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and [00:25:00] host Michael Lee.

Michael Lee: Recording and sound engineering by Jesse k and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We disagree@gmail.com.