Conflict Resolution

Michael Covington, an experienced government relations officer, reveals the art of navigating the toughest conflicts with strategic persuasion and direct engagement. With a mix of humor and hard-earned lessons from several decades in the world of lobbying, he suggests how to transform heated disagreements into powerful opportunities for meaningful change.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Discussions about democracy often sound abstract, but they shape how we experience political debates, news, and even disagreements in our personal lives. To get a handle on the concept, let's look at one of the most influential accounts of the public sphere in a democratic society.

Michael Lee: Jurgen Haber, a German philosopher, wrote meaningfully about the flow of information and ideas and developing democracies throughout his career. And is most well known for his 1962 book, the Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere. Habermas described the public sphere as a space where individuals come together to freely discuss social issues, form public opinions without the direct influence of government or corporate power.

Michael Lee: It's a kind of middle ground between private life and our formal [00:01:00] voting participation in the political system historically. Haber Moss traced the origins of the public sphere to 18th century European coffee houses, salons and pamphlet culture in these spaces, citizens, often wealthy men at the time, of course, would gather to debate political issues and critique those in power.

Michael Lee: The printing press further amplified this kind of critical public discourse, circulating ideas and arguments widely. However, Habermas also argued that this ideal public sphere. Deteriorated over time as mass media economic interests and political manipulation came to dominate communication. But the concept of the public sphere isn't confined to history or philosophy or institutions.

Michael Lee: It also helps us understand how we negotiate disagreements in everyday life. Think about how a group chat can become a mini public sphere. Especially when friends or family members debate a divisive topic. Maybe a [00:02:00] friend shares a controversial story and others chime in with different points of view, linking to different articles and sharing experiences.

Michael Lee: Ideally, the conversation allows people to weigh evidence, question assumptions, and refine their views. But just like the historical public sphere, these discussions can break down when misinformation spreads. Voices are shut out. Or people argue in bad faith. Ultimately, understanding the public's fear isn't just about analyzing governments or media or corporations.

Michael Lee: It's also about noticing how we engage in dialogue and recognizes the spaces where public opinion can take shape, whether it's in the comment section of a news article or a town hall or a. Heid family debate. The principles of the public sphere or the ideal public sphere can always be at play. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston.

Michael Lee: Our guest today on When We Disagree is Michael Covington. [00:03:00] Michael is the managing director of Speedwell Group, a government relations firm in Columbia, South Carolina. He grew up in Orangeburg County on the mossy Banks of the South Edisto River. Michael, tell us an argument story. 

Michael Covington: I, when I finished the College of Charleston, I had studied a lot of behavioral sciences and this sort of thing, and I took a job with the State Human Affairs Commission working community relations work, which was trying to resolve community issues mostly based on I.

Michael Covington: Racial discrimination or, uh, uh, unequal services, uh, highway projects are plowing through, uh, minority neighborhoods and that sort of thing. And, uh, and so I worked with a gentleman named Earl Brown and he. Had gone through a lot of management training in his day. Mm-hmm. And his, one of his favorite management tools was something called the Confrontation meeting, which was, uh, uh, part of a book called, um, I think the name of the book was Organizational Transitions by [00:04:00] Richard Beckard.

Michael Covington: And the main lesson I learned from that, the confrontational, uh, uh, the confrontation meeting was. If you're gonna solve a problem, the first thing you need to do is confront the problem, identify the problem, 

Michael Lee: uhhuh. 

Michael Covington: And so, uh, we would occasionally get involved in things, like I said, maybe a highway project was going through.

Michael Covington: Uh, there was one in particular where the, all of the right of way was supposed to come equal parts on each side, Uhhuh, but the local government said, no, we want you to take all the right of way on the, the other side of the road and only, uh. Widen on that side and don't touch any anybody's property on this side.

Michael Covington: Well, it became a racial issue in that town because we found out that the mayor's sister lived on the side where they didn't want to give up any right of way. And there was a go figure. Yeah, there was a black businessman on the other side who was famous for his sausage and uh, and, and local groceries and things of that nature.

Michael Covington: So we had to get the, get folks together on that. [00:05:00] 

Michael Lee: Take us through what a confrontation meeting looks like. Okay. In other words, what's the, what's the 

Michael Covington: format? It's really a management tool. Okay. Okay. And he, uh, Earl kind of applied it to, uh, community meetings. And so I'll continue with the story about the highway widening.

Michael Covington: Yeah. So we, we went down there, um, Earl kind of famously had a great sense of humor and he said, he said. Michael, you might wanna back the car in to park for this meeting because we may have to make a fast escape. And, um, so it was gonna be held in the courthouse. In the courtroom, 

Michael Lee: okay? 

Michael Covington: We walked into the courtroom and um, all of the white people were sitting on one side and all the black people were sitting on the other side.

Michael Covington: And Earl says, Michael. See if we can find another room, right? So I found another smaller room and, and Earl said, folks, we're gonna have to move down to this other room 'cause they're gonna clean the courthouse, uh, room tonight. And by the time we got 'em all in that other room that it [00:06:00] was all mixed up, black and white, all, all together.

Michael Covington: And, and so we had a couple speakers to identify what, what do you see the problem here? And let's identify what is the issue we're dealing with. And from there. Uh, I don't know. There's some magic involved. There's some pot, there's some management involved. Sure. There's, uh, a little bit of, uh, cajoling, uh, and when I worked at the Human Affairs Commission, we, we were given three powers, conference, conciliation, and persuasion.

Michael Covington: So we didn't have a lot to work with there. It worked out and just by confronting getting everybody to see the other side's. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Michael Covington: Position. 

Michael Lee: You have several success stories. This road widening issue is one of them, but lots of successful confrontation meetings. Is that right? I. 

Michael Covington: I wouldn't say that that is, um, that the confrontation meeting, that's just one, one tool in the toolbox.

Michael Covington: Okay. Take us through the others. Um, when, when I was at the College of Charleston, uh, bill Keeling, a professor in [00:07:00] anthropology, had a course, uh, called Culture Change and it was all about how culture changes and, uh, so this like, uh, group psychology almost, you know, how, how groups. Evolve and he assigned us to read a book, which is still on my bookshelf today.

Michael Covington: It's uh. It is called innovation, the Basis of Culture, cultural Change by HG Barnett. I think it was written back in the, I don't know, sixties or seventies, but it's still relevant today. And basically the, it's a very detailed, difficult read, to be honest with you. And it's an academic book. And it's an academic Yeah.

Michael Covington: And it was very academically written. And so, um, but the basic thing you learn from that book is that if you want to get someone to come around mm-hmm. To, uh, a new position to get rid of their paradigms and their biases or [00:08:00] false beliefs that they may have and open their minds, it's best not to start at ground zero.

Michael Covington: It's best to find out what they already believe. This almost sounds Machiavellian, but uh, you find what they already believe and then you innovate upon that rather than trying to invent you innovate and, and gradually bringing them around to seeing Yeah. The big picture now, 

Michael Lee: that's one of the ancient re rhetorical lessons from folks like a Socrates, Aristotle, et cetera, is that the limits of persuasion are the limits of the audience's current beliefs.

Michael Covington: Yeah. Yeah, that's Well, well said. Well, uh, uh, I didn't know Socrates, was he, uh, a friend of yours knew him? Well, he's a hell of a bowler. Oh, really? So, um, one, the big issue when I left the Human Affairs Commission, I went to work for the Associated General Contractors, the A GC, [00:09:00] and these, these are people who are big contractors.

Michael Covington: People who build roads, people who build skyscrapers, people who put in water and sewer plants, water and sewer lines. Uh, not your home builders. These are big commercial and industrial contractors and the highway and bridge contractors. And, uh, a lot of the engineers that design highways and bridges had become very frustrated, uh, in the early nineties.

Michael Covington: Where they had, um, they had supported a gas tax increase in 1987. And it was only 3 cents per gallon. Mm-hmm. And the vast majority of that money ended up being spent on hiring more highway patrolmen, uh, expanding the, the motor vehicle division. Uh, by the time they got through with it, they could not do what was intended.

Michael Covington: And they were very frustrated by this. Mm-hmm. And it was because politics was guiding the ship. [00:10:00] And so in 1993, we formed a committee. To look at how the Highway department is, what we called it then, how it's structured. And we came out with a very detailed report, and I'm proud to say I wrote the report, but I had a lot of input.

Michael Covington: And, um, that report recommended taking the old highway department, which included the Highway patrol, transport police, motor vehicle division, you know, DMV. And it included all of your, uh, highways and, uh, mass transit. Everything was under one umbrella. Okay. And we recommended dividing that agency up. And a former College of Charleston, president Glenn McConnell, took it under his wing and pushed it through.

Michael Covington: And there were a lot of people that questioned it. Are you really sure you want to give up these driver's license fees? Mm-hmm. And all this and let it go to the general fund. And the reason we said yes was because we wanted the Highway [00:11:00] Commission to focus on highways and not be worrying about I want a Highway patrol radio with my car.

Michael Covington: You know, or I want to, I want to get in my registration, uh, to my car. Uh, yeah. You know, taken care of very quickly or something. Yeah. So, uh, we got that done. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and this is a politically thorny issue, as was the first example of the confrontation meetings. And so you have a, a wide career to look back on to say.

Michael Lee: How you focused on conflict negotiation, on deescalation, on peaceful coexistence, on just getting stuff done in, in state government. And then on the basic act of persuasion as you look back on it, what are, what are some of those important lessons to you? Um, you already mentioned one, which is, uh, focus on what the audience currently believes, but what are some other ones?

Michael Covington: Um, I hear, uh, presentations sometimes or I'll read [00:12:00] articles that I, I I go, wow, that's exactly how I think I like this. Uh, two months ago I was at a presentation by, uh, uh, Dr. John Medina with the University of Washington, and, uh, he was talking about. Separating fact from bias. And he may have made some really interesting points, for example, that you know, your ears and your eyes take in millions of bits of information, but your brain can only process so certain amount, uhhuh.

Michael Covington: And so one thing that I've really learned is keep it simple. You've got to keep it simple and, and, and try to identify. What the person's predisposition is, what their bias is. Bias is not necessarily a bad word by the way. Right. It just means that you have a built in, you hear a buzz word, you see something, and it makes you automatically categorize this into that preconceived notion that you have, right?

Michael Covington: And [00:13:00] so, um, he, he divided it up into, uh, two or three different things. One was the illusory truth effect, which is like. If you, if somebody has heard something repeated to them enough times. Whether it's true or not, they're gonna believe it. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Michael Covington: The other thing was the exposure effect. Um, you become comfortable with things that are familiar, and so if it's, if it's familiar, if it's unfamiliar, you're gonna not believe it.

Michael Covington: And that leads to the third thing that is, there's a negativity bias, which means you, uh, when you're. Have a response to hearing some new information. You're automatically, most people are automatically skeptical. So I've learned that all of these things, uh, just what he wrapped it up into such a beautiful presentation when I back in August.

Michael Covington: But, um, I have really learned that you've got to pay attention to who don't talk at people. Mm-hmm. Talk with them, listen to what [00:14:00] they're saying, listen where they're coming from, and then try to. Kinda use that to your advantage to get your point across. 

Michael Lee: I, you've come to this a few times, and I was gonna ask this question at the beginning when you were talking about the confrontation meetings and identifying the problem, which is really saying what is the fact, what are the facts of these cases and how are they inconvenient?

Michael Lee: For some of us, and here again, we return to the basic question of fact, facticity factuality, separating fact from fiction, separating fact from bias. Mm-hmm. It sounds. It's a deceptively simple question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. How do you know that something's a fact? 

Michael Covington: You know, you must have been listening to PBS day before yesterday.

Michael Covington: Never once. Okay. There, um, the, uh, you know, what do we really know is fact? I, you know, that that is a philosophical question that we'll be asking for eons, but I think that the, uh, [00:15:00] you know, something that can be quantifiably proven, I think something that. In my opinion, it should be based on the scientific method.

Michael Covington: And for those of you listening who don't know what the scientific method is, it means you will, you'll observe, you'll observe again, and you'll observe again until you see a distinct. Pattern and then you come to a conclusion. It's kinda like the difference between deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning.

Michael Covington: One thing that confounds the hell outta me and that is inductive reasoning. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Michael Covington: You know, uh, the great example, and I think it might have been Socrates that said, the example of this is you walk into a forest, okay, and you see a red bird. You go, wow, there's nothing but red birds in this forest. Well, you haven't taken a few more steps and realize they're blue birds.

Michael Covington: They're, they're, you know, ducks, there are geese, there're whatever. Sure. And so you come to a conclusion based on, I. [00:16:00] Usually predetermined biases that you know, that, that you, based on the first thing you see, um, yeah. You know, politicians are kind of bad about that. I've, I've learned is they'll take one example of something that terrible happened in a community and say, this is what these people are doing.

Michael Covington: Yeah. And uh, it turns out that it was a one off. That's right. So I think the main thing is to pay attention to who you're talking with. Open up to them. Let them, let them air. Exactly. And, and, and keep asking the way you're doing me right now. Ask questions and dig in. 

Michael Lee: You have a lot of faith after we live in a very cynical culture and we live in a culture that's very cynical about.

Michael Lee: What can really be gained by having difficult conversations and attempting to persuade people who are really dug into their beliefs. In other words, we have a culture that seems to be moving apart from one another as quickly as possible, and refusing to do the [00:17:00] kinds of work that you've spent quite some time doing.

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. You're sitting here and you have a, and I'll admit this to be a kind of enchanting belief in the power of intergroup dialogue and persuasion. Is that a fair characterization of how you feel? I. 

Michael Covington: Traditionally, uh, yeah, I, I do see it becoming more and more difficult to, to work in, in that kinda world.

Michael Covington: Yeah. But, uh, again, but you're also 

Michael Lee: sitting here talking about induction and deduction and red birds and hasty generalizations, which is what that was and Yeah. And so forth and hopeful that. If more people could learn the scientific method, if more people could learn, um, reproducible evidence, if more people could listen more effectively, then perhaps we would have better public reasoning.

Michael Lee: I. 

Michael Covington: Yeah, it, it seems that more and more, and I don't know what the, uh, what, what's causing this, but we, we are not being, we're not learning critical thinking. And, um, [00:18:00] but one good thing and, and we, a lot of times we characterize politicians. Um, because we watch, a lot of times we watch Washington and that's where all the news coverage is, and people don't really realize what's happening at the State House Uhhuh or in county council.

Michael Covington: But a lot of those folks that we want to, we want to just characterize 'em all and stereotype 'em all as they're just out for themself or whatever. You know, it's all these stereotypes, uhhuh, but what you will find is there are leaders in those groups who really are trying to. You know, advance good policy.

Michael Covington: Mm-hmm. And so, um, we have successes and those successes come, you know, maybe one in one in 20 efforts, but when they do, it is very heartwarming and it is, uh, fulfilling to, you know, to have a success. 

Michael Lee: So one of the lessons you'd say for those trying to make change at a [00:19:00] state level or a county level is to.

Michael Lee: To find leadership on those positions within relevant governments. 

Michael Covington: Um, yeah. And to, uh, engage even with the people you disagree with, engage with them. 

Michael Lee: Let me ask you about missteps, about a memory of the, where your faith and reason came up short. 

Michael Covington: Uh, I've got about a million of them, but, you know, it's a funny, funny, uh, thing you asked that question because.

Michael Covington: Um, just this past week I was talking with a group, um, about communications. Okay. And how important it is that you try to choose the right words, especially given who you're talking to. Know your audience, you know, know your audience and I'll never forget. Early in my registered lobbyist days, um, Mr.

Michael Covington: McClellan was chairman of the, uh, ways and Means committee, [00:20:00] and I was trying to get this point across about comparing us to other states. Mm-hmm. You know, for example, South Carolina has 65% of the roads under state maintenance. Georgia only has 16% under state maintenance. So our state has taken on a bigger responsibility, and I use the word.

Michael Covington: I said, so when we are looking at our roads, da, da da. At that time I was representing mostly the highway contractors. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Michael Covington: And he stopped me dead right there and looked at me and he said, what do you mean our roads? They're not your roads. They belong to the people. Well, that's what I meant when I said our roads.

Michael Covington: I was talking in the, you know, as part of the people, but he took it that I was talking, that I was saying. Mm-hmm. No, the highway contractors, those are our roads. Mm-hmm. I will never forget that. Mm-hmm. Uh, that that was. You know, one example, 

Michael Lee: he's had a bone to pick with you over your choice of pronouns.

Michael Lee: Right? Your possessive pronouns. Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:00] I really appreciate this. If you had, you've offered a few kind of enduring lessons, um, in terms of persuasion, conflict, deescalation, engaging in the reasonable exchange of ideas. If I could sum up the kind of the summation point seems to me to be, know your audience.

Michael Lee: Is there anything that you would add to that? 

Michael Covington: Don't just shoot from the hip. If you, if you're gonna talk to somebody, you better know what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. And the other thing is don't lead them. Someone you're trying to bring around. Don't lead 'em down the primrose path. 

Michael Lee: Mm-hmm. Don't 

Michael Covington: only tell your side.

Michael Covington: You've gotta tell 'em here where the pitfalls are and this is what you're gonna be criticized for. If you take this position. I'm asking you to take 

Michael Lee: Michael Covington. Thank you so much for being on When we Disagree. When we Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee.

Michael Lee: Recording and sound engineering by Jesse k and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When [00:22:00] We disagree@gmail.com.