Gut Check

Matt Bares, CEO of Chandler Construction Services, shares the tough decisions he faced during the pandemic. Torn between public safety, personal liberty, and business survival, he mandated COVID vaccines despite potentially fierce opposition from his workforce. Looking back, he stands by his choice, though the weight of those disagreements lingers.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When we disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Let's talk about verbal trickery, rhetorical sleight of hand, those trying to trick. You have many methods that red herring distraction comes to mind. But one of the most often used is the fallacy of equivocation.

Michael Lee: You've probably encountered it without realizing it. The fallacy happens when a key term in an argument is used in multiple different ways leading to confusion and a misleading conclusion. It's a casual deceit. Here's how it works. Someone will use a word that has multiple meanings, switching between those meanings to support their argument.

Michael Lee: Without acknowledging that the words meaning has shifted. This can make the argument seem stronger than it really is a product you love. Let's say a juice or a breakfast protein bar comes in green packaging that's decorated with woodsy scenes. You get the picture [00:01:00] that packaging also claims that the good people who make this juice or protein bar only use natural ingredients under the assumption that many consumers will have a positive and fairly narrow association with the word natural.

Michael Lee: And think the company is very selective about using organic ingredients when in reality natural can mean damn near anything. Natural is being used here in two different senses. One, implying something narrow and appealing in a marketing sense, and another more expansive way to give the company legal cover.

Michael Lee: Another concept is relevant here, lying by omission. Let's say you asked me what I did last night and I, I list several things that I did bowling, eating pizza, walking the dog, but I left out something that I did that you wouldn't like. Or you asked me who I went bowling with, and I list Jack and Jill. But I leave out a third person who you don't want me to spend time with, and I know that [00:02:00] in both of these cases, I'm deceiving through omission and using a fallacy of equivocation because you were asking what I did last night and who is there under the assumption that I'll be forthcoming in my answer.

Michael Lee: And I'm using that charity against you by listing things that I did, so I'm technically not lying by creating a hundred percent false reality. I did go bowling with Jack and Jill after RAW, so that you won't feel threatened or betrayed by what I'm leaving out. Equivocating is a way to pull the wool over someone's eyes.

Michael Lee: It's sneaky because it can make a flawed claim sound convincing by relying on wordplay. Recognizing equivocation is important because it helps us stay focused on the actual meaning behind the words we or somebody else is using, ensuring that our discussions are grounded in clear and honest communication.

Michael Lee: At its heart, equivocation is about clarity or the lack of it. I'm Michael Lee, professor of Communication and Director of the Civility [00:03:00] Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Matt Bears. Matt is the CEO of Chandler Construction Services, a specialty trade contractor, and the Carolinas in Georgia.

Michael Lee: Matt, tell us an argument story. 

Matt Bares: Well, your listeners would have to go back. What feels like a lifetime ago. Personally, professionally, I'm still dealing with it today. 

Hmm. 

Matt Bares: And that's the middle of the, uh, COVID pandemic. 

Hmm. 

Matt Bares: It was probably a. Year or so into the pandemic after the Trump administration had, uh, enacted the response Act requiring businesses of various sizes to perform, implement, I guess, different, uh, procedures for worker safety and for public safety.

Matt Bares: And we were in a kind of an interesting spot in that we were [00:04:00] growing the business. We were an essential business, so all of our workers, uh, had to continue to work even during the pandemic. And it, it doesn't take me long to go back emotionally and mm-hmm. Think back about the, uh, mask mandates. And I laugh still to this day.

Matt Bares: We couldn't get thermometers in Fahrenheit and we were trying to calculate, you know, Celsius, that type of thing. Um, there were new requirements coming out. It felt like daily. And the unknown costs were hard for a small business. The challenge that I ran into and the argument that ensued was the vaccine mandate.

Matt Bares: And when the vaccine became, uh, conditionally approved by the government, you know, it was probably 18, 24 months into the pandemic, there was discussion that it was being mandated on federal contracts and in um. Certain workforce. And then of course you remember the [00:05:00] sports mm-hmm. Teams were mandating and there was some political backlash there.

Matt Bares: Um, there's a lot of division politically within the country. 

Mm-hmm. 

Matt Bares: And I had this moral dilemma on whether or not we should, man, we should mandate vaccines. And ultimately I chose to do so. We weren't required to do so. We were a small enough business. We didn't have to, um, OSHA was requiring it from a workforce perspective on construction sites.

Matt Bares: And still to this day, I still think almost each night when I go to bed about the disagreements that I had with probably 50% of our workforce. 

Michael Lee: Let's pause there if you don't mind, and and talk a little bit about why your firm was a classify as an essential business. Just kind of set up this dilemma of whether or not you're going to require vaccines of your workers.

Matt Bares: We're a utility contractor. Okay. And, uh, critical services. Water, sewer, [00:06:00] um, fire protection. Gotcha. We are working on federal projects and, uh, municipal projects that required to bring water to. 

Michael Lee: These are the sort of basic building blocks of what we call civilization. That's correct. Is moving around water, sewage, et cetera, so we can live with this relative level of comfort.

Michael Lee: Been. And how big is the business? How big is Chandler? About a hundred employees. Okay. And so. When the mandate was issued, because you were essential, this is in your province, you had to make a decision, but you were also small enough as a firm that you, you wouldn't have to just help, help me understand that.

Michael Lee: It wasn't, it 

Matt Bares: wasn't a requirement. Got you. Um, we were at the time about 75, 80 employees, and I would say half of 'em were, uh, against, uh, being vaccinated and the other half are four. It was pretty, uh, black and white. Did you do, how did you know that? Really it was, I relied on the folks in the field and you know, the birds would tell me, I mean, I would just hear back.

Matt Bares: Sure. And [00:07:00] that was a challenge I had. I couldn't go out and ask whether or not they were pro they wanted a mandate. If I did, I knew a significant portion of the population of my work population would then, if I agreed to do it, would be upset. Then if I chose not to do it, the other half would be upset.

Matt Bares: Right? And I had contractual obligations and work to complete without a workforce. If I lost half my workforce, I'd still be contractually required to do the work. Uh, so I would, I was going to offend somebody. So I had to go in with a, it was more of a moral and ethical dilemma on my part on how to proceed.

Matt Bares: And I had a real problem with certain employees that I personally had gone and. Um, I didn't have a problem with the employees, the logic behind, um, employees that I had gone personally with and gotten a flu vaccine. 

Michael Lee: Right. 

Matt Bares: Um, many of our employees, 'cause of the type of work we're in, are required to have Hep A and Hep B shots, so there's other vaccines that people willfully [00:08:00] would've taken or had taken.

Matt Bares: And in this specific case, they were pushing back. I, I, it was a real challenge and the outcome was favorable, but I still deal with it today because it really came down to the trust and, uh, more of a, I hate to say a maternal component on my part. I had to make a decision on behalf of the company as a whole, and it was me.

Matt Bares: It wasn't, there wasn't no name I could lean on. I couldn't go to anybody else in the organization and ask their opinion ultimately came down to me on, um, and it wasn't, it was strangely not business related. 

Michael Lee: And you have to adjudicate this dispute about science, this dispute about vaccines, but also make decisions for the, your employees about what they are gonna put in their bodies.

Michael Lee: It, 

Matt Bares: yeah, the, the personal liberty aspect of it that I had to think through compared to the public and personal safety. If you can imagine, I mean, driving down the road with four or five employees in the same crew truck. [00:09:00] 

Michael Lee: Okay. 

Matt Bares: And then they're going home to their families, and I don't know who they have at home with their fam, who, if it's a vulnerable portion of the population.

Matt Bares: Yeah. I didn't know if they had young children, pregnant spouses. I mean, I, I had no concept of who I would be exposing if I failed to do what I thought was the minimum reasonable standard for protecting our workforce and the greater public. And we went ahead and. Pulled the trigger and sent the mandate out and required it.

Matt Bares: And I had employees actually quiz me and test me that you're not actually gonna require me to get a shot Uhhuh. And, um, when we did, um, and I, I think we lost two out of 70 something employees. I mean, due to the mandate, Uhhuh in hindsight. So we somehow I was effectively able to persuade the rest of the population to stay and to do what.

Matt Bares: Personally, I felt was the [00:10:00] moral obligation that I had to fulfill. 

Michael Lee: Right. And they, and they have a choice, of course. It's not like they're at gunpoint, but they're, the choices are really a tough one, which is they're gonna lose their job. And then all of the arguments you're talking about in terms of who's at home, is there somebody immunocompromised, um, do they have young children?

Michael Lee: All of those arguments are also a real risk and a real factor if a person no longer has an income. 

Matt Bares: And on top of that, you're trying to navigate the constant changes. There were the. Whether or not they had had covid in the past, 

right. And whether 

Matt Bares: or not they could get the shot immediately, Uhhuh. Um, and it, it worked out timing wise because of the holidays is what really, I woke up one morning, it was September timeframe.

Matt Bares: I remember it well when we put out the mandate, and I knew that if I didn't get the workforce fully vaccinated before the holidays, we'd come back out in January. A workforce that was down and possibly, you know, family deaths. And I had dealt as, as a business owner of a small business. I mean, I, [00:11:00] I, I always joke with folks, I'm, I'm, I'm a lender of last resort.

Matt Bares: I'm a marriage counselor. Um, right. In this specific case, I didn't want to be a funeral director. 

Michael Lee: And, and, but you also found yourself as a kind of unwitting surgeon general as well to take on another role, which is to say adjudicating scientific questions that are incredibly difficult amidst a crisis and shifting senses of viral loads and all of the kinds of sciencey words that we all learned four or five years ago.

Matt Bares: That was the hardest part of it. It was, um. Could have been laughable at times and we probably could make a sitcom out of it. Yeah. The, in hindsight, it wasn't funny at the time. No. But I vividly remember trying to better understand so I could communicate, but I had to be careful and I had to tell 'em what I didn't know.

Matt Bares: And I, I did have a, and that's how I kind of figured out after the fact, I validated what I was told on the front end, that we were gonna get the pushback. Once I mandated it, those folks that came to the table and said, Hey, [00:12:00] this isn't right. Yeah, we can't, I can't be forced to do it. I, I need my job. Um, and there were provisions in the response act that, you know, as far as payment and when employees could take time off and under what conditions, and trying to navigate all that along with the scientific jargon was a constant struggle.

Michael Lee: And to be clear, you have no background or training in virology? Immunology? I do not. No epidemiology. I'm a ditch 

Matt Bares: digger. 

Michael Lee: And so as a ditch digger, did you find yourself arguing about these scientific questions standing six feet apart? How communicable is this disease? What's really in the vaccine? How effective is the vaccine?

Michael Lee: Did you find yourself in sciencey arguments with other ditch stickers? Ab 

Matt Bares: Abso, absolutely. It was, um, again, it could have been comical in a sitcom in that you have this mask on and you can envision yourself sitting six, standing, six feet apart and you as to more aggravated, you got, right. Having the discussions, people are taking their masks down, you know, like to better express themselves.

Matt Bares: [00:13:00] Right. Um. But it, it was a different time. And in hindsight, I don't know how I could have handled it. I wouldn't have handled it any different. Um, now that I know the facts, 

Michael Lee: yeah. But 

Matt Bares: I didn't have the facts at the time. And it was an interesting thing because I still find myself re-litigating, even today. I have this, you know, I always joke about the, uh, um, bringing a, you know, binder in with me as far as a notepad, uhhuh of all the scientific, you know, facts now, or the data now.

Yeah, 

Matt Bares: I didn't have that at the time. I, I don't remember those facts in the arguments. Yeah. But I remember the feelings. I remember how I felt going through the process, knowing that I didn't want to be responsible for the death of an individual when there's something simple that I could have done to avoid it.

Michael Lee: Right. And I, but you could also imagine this, just taking, taking an opposite side and trying to put myself in the dilemma that you were in, which is to say, I am not a [00:14:00] scientist. I feel very strongly about not violating people's personal liberties, and so do I want to fire somebody because they won't take.

Michael Lee: Something that I don't really understand 

Matt Bares: and the risk of going out of business if everyone revolted against it and said they wouldn't do it. Mm-hmm. I had that constant challenge as well. 

Michael Lee: Sort of the financial risk. You like self preservation, company preservation, and then that's true for all your employees too, right?

Michael Lee: The business goes down, that's bad for people's lives, but also if you are getting covid, when Covid is easily preventable with a vaccine, also really bad for people's lives and business and so. Stuck in this kind of impossible, vexing set of circumstances here. What I'm interested in is, as you talk about this at a high level, um, you are not second guessing what you did.

Michael Lee: It doesn't sound like you would do much differently. Lemme just before I just say, now that 

Matt Bares: I know the facts, I would've done things even quicker. Yeah. An easier decision. 

Michael Lee: Before I get to this big question, lemme back up and, and ask that [00:15:00] question. What, if anything, would you have done differently? You would've moved more quickly.

Michael Lee: What does that mean? 

Matt Bares: Um, I would've better educated the workforce with the knowledge that we have now. Again, I'm a, I'm, I'm a student of the history and what I've learned in the process and what I know to be factual now. There was just so much. Bad information at the time coming from all different directions.

Matt Bares: Now I know what would've worked and what wouldn't have worked. I mean, again, the taking the temperatures with the laughing about the doing it in Celsius. Right. Um, and the plastic in front of the windows when you walked up to the office and, um, you know, having only four people in the truck instead of five.

Matt Bares: Right. So the middle seat was empty type deal and this kind 

Michael Lee: of mask, but not that type of mask and 

Matt Bares: Right. All that I would've done differently. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. Do you think that that would've been effective? In other words, do you have, do you have, um, faith. That you could have put on kind of science education programming that would've been persuasive?

Matt Bares: I don't know if I [00:16:00] could have, um, that's a very good question. I don't, I don't believe I, I would've known enough even today to have done things differently. 'cause I don't have the luxury of knowing what didn't happen. That's right. If we didn't vaccinate the workforce, no one, none of our employees died.

Matt Bares: None of 'em were hospitalized. That I'm aware of. Um. I'm not aware of any immediate family members. So statistically in hindsight, I think we helped the situation. And then I look back, you know, collectively at, uh, the data today and the, the states that had the highest vaccination still had the least vulnerable.

Matt Bares: Mm-hmm. The least amount of vulnerable, um, residents, effective and hospitalized and dying. So, I mean, all that, all that suggests that the vaccine actually worked as far as keeping our workforce safe. 

Michael Lee: Do you know other people in your similar position, other folks in your field, other CEOs who made different decisions in terms of mandating the vaccine of their employees?

Michael Lee: Most of them [00:17:00] 

Matt Bares: told me I shouldn't do it. I couldn't do it. The, the trade partners that I have thought it was a bad idea, um, many of 'em joked with me, you know, off the record that they'll pick up my employees that don't wanna 

uhhuh, 

Matt Bares: you know, don't want to go through with the jab. But, um, it worked out pretty well and it was.

Matt Bares: And, and like I said, in hindsight, I, it was very fulfilling to know that we still have the workforce and we've grown since then. 

Michael Lee: You felt pretty isolated, at least compared to other people in your position? 

Matt Bares: Very much so. So it was a lonely place and a lonely time. 

Michael Lee: What do you think, what compelled you to take what seems like it would've been a harder road given the relative loneliness and controversy you were embracing?

Michael Lee: Given this industry? 

Matt Bares: I don't know what I could have done different. I really don't, I don't have a, um, even looking back, I, I think of the analogy I kept going to is, you know, the, the automotive manufacturers and car dealers and, uh, [00:18:00] maintenance folks tell you, get your oil changed every 5,000 miles or 20,000 miles.

Matt Bares: I know there's people out there that don't change your oil ever, and the car runs 50,000 miles or a hundred thousand miles, right? Uhhuh And those people are out there saying, Hey, you're a fool for spending $150. Get your oil changed, right? You don't know if unless the car stops running. And I wouldn't have known unless somebody was seriously ill, hospitalized or died.

Matt Bares: And in hindsight I didn't have that. And we're just a small token of the overall data set. But it was, uh, like I said, it was reassuring that it actually worked and we worked through it. 

Michael Lee: The big question I was working towards is about your memory of this and, and you said that you often find yourself at night and other times re-litigating it and you can get into the feeling of it so powerfully.

Michael Lee: So on the one hand, it sounds like an impossible situation. And, and what is personally dangerous? Professionally Dangerous, morally dangerous. Complicated. There's so many unknown unknowns. So [00:19:00] truly a, a, a vexing position, but. You feel strong in your conviction. You feel like you did what you did out of, uh, the morally right path, even if it was also somewhat risky, came out better on the other side protected workers.

Michael Lee: So I don't hear a lot of second guessing on your behalf. No. So why do you go back and re-litigate it? Do you think 

Matt Bares: It's still stressful today because we're still getting covid vaccines? Mm-hmm. Um, on the personal front with my own family, uh, my wife of 30 years, you know. While she's supportive and agreeing with me from a standpoint of the importance of the vaccination, doesn't understand the vaccinating unless you're the vulnerable uhhuh.

Matt Bares: At the time I had a, my eldest was in college and an adult. I couldn't tell her what to do, and my youngest was still in high school. I really could tell 'em what to do. And fortunately, I had the oldest one chose to get vaccinated without my, you know, having to push it being an adult. [00:20:00] And my youngest one wouldn't do it, kicking and screaming until eventually sporting team, sports teams, all of a sudden overruled.

Matt Bares: Dad. You know, so the maternal or paternal instinct that you have, and you're trying to keep your children safe and healthy and listen to you and what you, you think is best for them, when your own children don't listen to you, it's hard to imagine that your a hundred employees would. 

Michael Lee: And sometimes it can go the other direction.

Michael Lee: You know, strangers might listen to you more quickly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, it's, I often like to conclude these shows by asking people what they've learned from these conflicts. I'm, as I'm asking this of you, I'm struck by how trite I. This question is because there are moral, philosophical, familial, scientific, et cetera, et cetera, lessons to be learned here, but top of mind after four or five years of thinking about your this impossible decision that you had.

Michael Lee: What's the lesson? 

Matt Bares: The lesson for me has been you have to [00:21:00] trust yourself and not argue for the sake of arguing, but to better understand I. What other people's positions are gonna be. And if you do, if you take the time to better understand where they're coming from, it at least gives you the, an opportunity to orally communicate, um, and agree to disagree.

Matt Bares: Yeah. And um, in this case, it just ended up with, you know, a few folks losing their jobs and it's better than a few folks losing their lives. 

Michael Lee: Matt Bears, thank you so much for being on when we disagree. It's a joy being in the studio. Thanks, Mike. When we Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee.

Michael Lee: Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Ks and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We [00:22:00] disagree@gmail.com.