Trust

Kristal Hudson-Randall, a retired IT executive and former educator, shares  an internal struggle about the direction of the nation. A former optimist, she now wonders whether she can really trust her fellow citizens and, more generally, her country. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments. How we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Let's say you're asking a friend for advice about how to ask a crush out on a date. The friend gives you some really great advice like, well do it or don't do it. She'll either say yes or no.

Michael Lee: Not only is this terrible advice, but it's also based on some simple assumptions about the world. Do it or don't, and yes or no, seem like they're the only options or potential outcomes. But lots of us have experienced some real gray areas and confusion in the middle of those. The false dilemma, also called the false dichotomy, the false binary, or the either or fallacy, is one of the sneakiest around.

Michael Lee: This is when someone sets up a situation where you're forced to choose between two options, as if those are the only ones available, even though there could be a whole range of possibilities. Think about it like a relationship [00:01:00] ultimatum. Either you come home from work early, or you don't care about me.

Michael Lee: The trap. Is that it ignores the fact that you could, of course, still care. And still want to leave work on time. You might even be able to find a way to meet both needs. These are common. You're in or you're out, live free or die, vote or die, love it or leave it. You're with us or you're against us. You're part of the problem or you're part of the solution.

Michael Lee: Happy wife, happy life. Put up or shut up. Good versus evil. It's not just about what's being said, it's about the underlying assumption that only these two choices matter. When this kind of thinking creeps into our arguments, it's easy to feel cornered, and sometimes the person wielding the false dilemma knows that.

Michael Lee: They want you to feel like there's no middle ground. No room to negotiate or think critically. The next time you're faced with an ultimatum like this, ask yourself, is it, if this is the only real choice you [00:02:00] have more often than not, you'll find that there are plenty of options outside of the two being presented.

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Crystal Hudson Randall. Crystal spent 30 years leading complex IT initiatives with dozens of clients in various industries, including government, healthcare, finance, insurance, oil and gas.

Michael Lee: After 30 years, she then transitioned into the classroom as a 6th grade English teacher. before fully retiring. Crystal, tell us an argument story. 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Sure, I'd like to. Um, it's not so much an argument with an individual as it is an argument with With my fellow countrymen and women. Um, there was a, uh, uh, recent, um, uh, court case where a young soldier, our ex soldier, I [00:03:00] believe, um, it was on a New York subway train, encountered someone who was behaving.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I don't know how aggressively, dangerously, frighteningly to other passengers to control the situation by putting the person in a chokehold. He passed away and this gentleman was taken to trial for it. They charged him with manslaughter. The jury deadlocked on manslaughter. The manslaughter charge was dropped and then, um, The, uh, ex soldier was, uh, not held to account, 

um, 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: for killing this, uh, troubled individual.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And just to be clear, this is, uh, 

Michael Lee: the case of Jordan Neely, who was choked to death by Daniel Penney in New York. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: So, for, for me, This is just one in an almost [00:04:00] daily parade of what I find to be fundamental instances where marginalized people are dehumanized, you know, so it's, it's, um, you know, I was just watching a, uh.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Uh, an NCIS episode where a young woman, uh, dived in, ex corpsman, dived in to save someone and in the storyline, she's in charge because, of course, she's not a health professional. And so that's illegal. Um, so she, even though she tried to prevent the deaths of some folks, she was, uh, you know, arrested and charged.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Now, not mind you, that was fictional, but the circumstance is, is, is valid and real and actual. It's, you know, You don't get to legally act like you are a licensed health care professional when you aren't one, but somehow we have no problem with this, uh, you know, ex soldier acting like a law [00:05:00] enforcement person, you know, entity, uh, when he had absolutely no right to do so and ending someone's life.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And we're like, it's okay. And I, you know, I'm, I'm, I've grown to accept these kinds of fundamental. Issues or instances where, you know, so long as it's a marginalized person, you know, person of color or an immigrant disabled person mentally ill person, you pick your poison. Their lives are just fundamentally worth less, particularly, you know.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Particularly when those lives are impacted, cut short by white American men. And, um, I have kind of reached my maximum capacity where I just no longer believe that, like Anne Frank, that most people are [00:06:00] really good at heart. 

Michael Lee: I want to ask you a question about your use of the collective pronoun we, as we kind of get into what the conflict is, as you were recounting the story of Daniel Penny or, or the Kyle Rittenhouse's of the world or insert storyline here, just to just to make your case, you said, and then we act like we have no problem with this.

Michael Lee: And then you said, and we're like, it's okay. When this life is lost. But then you concluded and then you concluded with a more general statement about how much hope you have in your, your average citizen colleague, you know, the hope you rest in strangers, but then you also are identifying cases and explicitly said it where the perpetrator.

Michael Lee: Ters are white American men who are not held accountable, and then the victims are marginalized, members of marginalized communities. So, who is the [00:07:00] we that you're talking about? Is it all of us? Is it a very specific? A very specific? I 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: count myself one, absolutely. 

Michael Lee: Uh huh. And so as we get to the to recognize the conflict here, you open by saying you have a conflict with your fellow countrymen, more or less.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Yeah, 

Michael Lee: absolutely. And is that conflict about, um, power dynamics? Is that conflict about the meaning of freedom in this country? Is that conflict about, um, hope and the hope of a peaceful, cosmopolitan, egalitarian society? What do you think the basis of that conflict is? 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Oh, the short answer is yes. The short answer is yes.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Um, I, I, um, I think that all of those things unfortunately are at are kind of on the table and being pushed to the limit. Um, you know, who do we [00:08:00] consider, you know, human? Who do we consider, you know, uh, a person worthy of civil rights? Um, you know, when do we let it, you You know, when do we agree to, to, when did we agree to be so unjust as a society?

Kristal Hudson-Randall: When do we, when do we say that it was okay? Um, I, you know, I think that, that I, I look at the kind of the system that we have in place and the aspirational goal of, of, of justice and the expectation of fairness that we have set. But then I look at how we meter out Um, what behavior we allow as a society, it just doesn't match up.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: It just doesn't. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. And this is where the collective pronoun use I'm interested in, you, you keep saying we, but you, it sounds to me at least implicitly, and I'm putting words in your mouth, so feel free to disagree. It sounds a little [00:09:00] bit like you're talking about they. And so I'm, I'm interested in why you're talking about why you're talking about a they like you are not the justice system.

Michael Lee: You are, you are not committing. Yes, I am. I mean, I'm 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: part of it is is every citizen. I mean, that's why I mean, I see we because I'm included in that we whether I like it or not. I mean, I, I absolutely am an American and a patriotic one at that and I. Yeah, so I can't divest myself of, of, of, of, of from being in that group or sharing that line.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: It's, it is we, it's me too. You were talking about. I know it sounds like I'm doing a they, they, they, but I'm, I'm, 

Michael Lee: I 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: am we. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and you were also talking about how these kinds of stories lead you to some suspicion about how many people are really capable of goodness. So, sort of your trust in strangers, your [00:10:00] hope in the whole human coexistence, peacefulness project, 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: um.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I have my real doubts. Yeah, I really do. I, I, um. Uh, the distrust for me is, is the thing and, and it's been, um, it's, for me, it's been a lifetime of, of drip, drip, drip, 

right? 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Um, and it, it, it's, um, it's, it's, it's, I've just, I'm, my cup overflows. So I remember at, you know, if you go back 30, 40 years ago, I was a very, I think a very hopeful individual.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I really was, um, I would have been if you've asked my 25 year old self, do you think that a better understanding of your fellow citizen, uh, more communication, uh, uh, open sharing of [00:11:00] perspectives, um, could lead to a better society? I would have said, Oh, my gosh, absolutely. And more than that, I am. Willing, you know, I'm willing to stand as tribute and have those difficult conversations with people because I think it can change minds and hearts and bring us together, or at least create a sense of empathy that in which we can share.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And I simply do not think that that is the case today. 

Michael Lee: What would it take to restore that. 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Oh, I'm sorry. 

Michael Lee: What would it take to restore that hope? I mean, because for each of these stories, and I speak here more as in a, in a sense of testing these ideas, not, um, proselytizing. I have a people who've listened to the show.

Michael Lee: No, I certainly wouldn't do the show and lead the initiatives that I lead without a greater hope in the communicative, collective reasoning project. And I also have a much admitted. deeply cynical side. Um, And so I say this in the spirit of of healthy debate, not [00:12:00] destructive argument, which is for the stories like the subway story that you open with, we can find, let's say, Daryl Davis's story of personally persuading 200 Klansmen to give up their robes and kind of see the light of common humanity as opposed to racial bias.

Michael Lee: And so I feel like I could, I could find stories to counter some of the more negative stories you're talking about. And so what would it take to restore the hope that you had in the sharing of perspectives that you might have had when you were, say, 25? 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Well, yeah, for me, I don't know how you could do it.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Honestly, I don't see I don't know. I don't currently see a path forward or way back. I want to go back to your point that you're absolutely right. And I love that particular story about, uh, about, uh, the In my head, the Klan man, uh, because that's the kind of thing that does, I think [00:13:00] it is hopeful, right?

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And it is absolute counterpoint to, to, to my, to my perspective, for me, the challenge with that is that I have, I've reached a point in my life where I understand that I can never, I do, I do hate to use the word never, but I'm going to stick to it this time that I cannot be him. I will not be him. That is not my story.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: That's not my path. I'm not doing it. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I don't know who is. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, I mean, that's really the challenge of his and a few other stories like it is how do you do that collective persuasion work with and put yourself in real danger with people who really dislike you and do it at scale. It's almost as Exactly.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Yeah. And, and, and with with the, the, I mean, the first point being, I, you know, I realized that I, no, the suffering of the Saints is not the way I wanna go. I'm, I'm, I'm, no, I just don't, I, my own shortcoming is that I [00:14:00] don't care enough about my fellow man. 

Mm-hmm . 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: What he did. I've, I've maxed out. You know, before the drip, drip, drip got quite this high, I was still at a place where I would be willing to say, oh, yes, I'll engage, you know, yeah, sure, I would, I would make some, some element of sacrifice, but now, no, absolutely not.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: It strikes me 

Michael Lee: as kind of reminiscent of the quotation. I think it's attributed to Hemingway, but I'm not a literature person, so I could butcher this about going broke. You go broke slowly at first, and then all at once, right? And this is the drip, drip, drip you're talking about. How do you become, how do you become a hopeless right slowly at first and then then all at once.

Michael Lee: That's exactly 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: it. And then I, it was a weird thing when I realized I crossed it 

where 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I was like, Oh yeah, that feeling of, you know, yeah, you know, It's a little tiring. You know, maybe I don't feel emotionally like I really want to share, but you know what, I'm going to engage and let's see where this goes.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And now, you [00:15:00] know, the stakes have to be so personally high and specifically beneficial to me before I will even think about, uh, you know, going, going to that place with someone. I just know my fellow man. You're not worth it. No. 

Michael Lee: Are you more work. For lack of a better word, cloistered, shut off, purposefully removed from encounters with different folks than you used to be?

Michael Lee: In other words, does this move into relative hopelessness coincide with a move into relative privacy?

Kristal Hudson-Randall: On so many levels, yes. Yes. But it's, it's not, um, to be, to be truly honest, it's not entirely, um, Um, a response to this. This situation is feeling right. I mean, some of it is still a hole over from COVID. Some of it is, um, you know, I just am out there a little [00:16:00] bit less than I used to be. Um, some of it is, um, being retired.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Not being, you know, not going into a workplace, uh, or being surrounded by work people every day makes a, you know, makes a big difference. Um, so there's kind of a, uh, uh, a natural, um, uh, retiring from society that comes with retirement. And so some of it is that, um, for sure. Some of it is that some of it's circumstantial.

Michael Lee: Yeah, I'm sorry. Some of it's circumstantial. It sounds like, um, but not all of it. I'm gonna ask you a big one as we kind of move to close here, which is speaking from my own point of view. There is a kind of goodness trap. Right? Which is that how much goodness do we attribute to strangers? How much, how much goodness, how much hope do we have in their ability to reason [00:17:00] their ability to practice something that feels like goodness or justice to all of us?

Michael Lee: And so on the one hand, it's really important to keep yourself safe. I wouldn't just approach everybody and be as vulnerable as possible and assume that they are capable of goodness. Let's say if we have half decent reason to believe that X, Y, or Z person or X, Y, or Z group of people don't like me, wish me harm, behave in ways that are anathema to my continued existence.

Michael Lee: And at the same time, if we're all uncharitable to one another all of the time, the situation gets immeasurably worse because so much violence, discrimination, anger, rage, et cetera, that exists in our world today is because of X, Y, or Z group of people having uncharitable assumptions about other groups of people.

Michael Lee: And so, on the one hand, it's necessary to keep ourselves safe and view the world relatively realistically about what's going on, why it's happening, and how to keep [00:18:00] ourselves out of harm's way deliberately, and the world gets easier to navigate, and our democracy becomes easier to live in, the more charitable we are to other fellow humans.

Michael Lee: And so when you're talking about this problem of hopelessness, that pickle is that dilemma is really striking to me. I don't think you're approaching this from a kind of strictly rational point of view where you're saying, well, this is my conclusion, and this is all the evidence you seem, if I can put words about a little ambivalent about it, like, you're not thrilled with this conclusion, but here you are, it's almost like a felt sense.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: No, that's absolutely true. It's a life experience since it's a, it's a, it's absolutely comes from an emotional place. It's not logical. It's not as though I've, I've stacked up evidence. I mean, to be fair, my own, when it comes down to my own personal existence, I have led a carefree existence. I'm, you know, I've well cared for.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: I've never [00:19:00] suffered unduly. Um, you know, my, my parents did everything they could, you know, to prepare me for the world that I live in. So I've just been, um, Just profoundly fortunate. I have not suffered. Uh, I have not personally suffered these things that, that drive my, that drive my feelings about, about, about where we are as a society.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: You know, I, I have simply not been, you know, uh, discriminated against very often or deeply in my life or, or hurt by specific, you know, uh, physical, uh, uh, danger based on my race, rarely in my life, you know, even so. And here's the thing, it's, I feel it deeply when it happens to other people in my circumstance, because it is just a matter of luck of the draw.[00:20:00] 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: You know, so, you know, but for anything, it could have been me, 

Michael Lee: right? 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: And that weight of, of walking around with that all the time is just, 

Michael Lee: yeah, it's sort of like an overwhelming risk of, of bad luck. 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Exactly. Which is no luck at all. It's by design. I'm like, really? Really? So even though I've been fortunate and it doesn't happen to me all the time, every time it happens randomly to someone else, I feel it.

Michael Lee: Yeah. And 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: it's another drip drip drip, 

Michael Lee: yeah. What's the lesson you draw? What would you recommend to others, um, because on the one hand you're saying, this is what I feel, this overwhelming sense of bad luck that's not really even luck, it's sort of by systemic design. And also, on the other hand, you know, you're not really saying everybody should feel this way, so I don't hear you up on the mountaintop saying wake up and become [00:21:00] hopeless, everyone.

Kristal Hudson-Randall: No, no, I mean, if anything, I hope that others do retain hope and that they march on. I'm just not gonna march with. 

Michael Lee: That's a great place to close. Crystal Hudson Randall, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Kristal Hudson-Randall: Thank you.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.