Humility

Clint Eisenhower recounts a career-shifting clash with a retiring CEO, where unspoken fears about aging and relevance turned a professional transition into a personal battle. Despite feeling deceived, Clint reflects on how life changes—like retirement—can cloud judgment, and how self-awareness is key in conflict. Now, as a leader of the Forward Party, he's channeling those lessons, using civility and compassion to navigate political conflicts and build a more inclusive future. His journey from personal discord to political revolution highlights the power of addressing challenges head-on while embracing humility.

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Why is a red herring, which means distraction or diversion from the real issue, called a red herring? There's quite the dispute over this, and the evidence all dates back centuries.

Michael Lee: Some claim that the smelly fish was used to train hunting dogs, or maybe to train horses. Others say the powerful scent from red herring was used by fugitives to mislead dogs. Regardless, all agree that red herring don't really even exist anyway, at least not in live form. Herring are silver, they only turn reddish when rotten, or smoked, but if they're smoked, confusingly, they become a kipper.

Michael Lee: It's all terribly weird and confusing, which, strangely enough, is exactly the point of the red herring argument fallacy. In simple terms, a red herring is when someone [00:01:00] introduces a point that distracts from the actual issue at hand. Essentially, a way of refocusing the conversation. Imagine you're upset that your significant other Forgot to pick up the groceries you ordered again, you bring this to their attention.

Michael Lee: Instead of discussing their forgetfulness around the groceries, you keep ordering, they bring up how they took out the trash last week or straightened up the living room. Now, technically, the trash or the tidiness of a shared living space is an issue that should be discussed, but it's completely irrelevant to the problem of groceries that you brought up by focusing on this unrelated issue they've thrown in a red herring.

Michael Lee: This creates confusion and sometimes even allows the person who's using the fallacy to avoid responsibility for their own actions or mistakes. In our grocery example, it shifts the focus from the tasks they neglected to your supposed fault in not taking out the trash or helping tidy up the shared living space.

Michael Lee: The same pattern occurs in this [00:02:00] example. You're trying to have a difficult conversation with a friend about how they keep flaking on plans you've made. You might bring this up. And when you do, instead of addressing your concerns, the friend responds by saying, well, you didn't respond to the meme I texted you last week.

Michael Lee: Once again, this shifts the attention off their behavior and your shared plans, and onto yours on a separate issue, avoiding the original issue. It might even make you question your own actions, even if you're not the one at fault. Recognizing red herrings can allow us to bring conversations back on track.

Michael Lee: It doesn't mean that the other person's responses are irrelevant. It doesn't even mean they're deliberate and that this is a strategic tactic. It could be compulsive or reflexive. Let's just handle these issues one at a time. First we can talk about groceries, then we can also talk about trash, and we can also talk about who's cleaning up the living room more often.

Michael Lee: Recognition of these tactics also helps prevent manipulation. If you're in a conversation with someone [00:03:00] who's using this fallacy to avoid accountability, recognizing it means you don't get Caught in a web of distractions that ultimately leaves nothing resolved. I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the college of Charleston.

Michael Lee: Our guest today on when we disagree is Clint Eisenhower. Clint is the South Carolina state chair for the forward party, a third party dedicated to finding better political candidates who are quote raging centrist and avoid polarized extremes. Tell us an argument story. 

Clint Eisenhower: Thank you, Michael. I appreciate it.

Clint Eisenhower: I've listened to some of your episodes, and I really appreciate what you're doing. Um, my story, uh, starts with a confrontation and then leads to an argument. And then, um, I've been thinking about this. This happened 20 years ago, and, uh, I still wish that it had come out to a better end. At any rate, um, I was recruited by a former CEO To, uh, [00:04:00] come to a really wonderful job several states away and take over for a guy who was retiring.

Clint Eisenhower: The guy who had been in that job for 10 years or so, uh, was highly respected in the industry, knew a lot of people and, uh, you know, and so I was looking forward to meeting him, getting to know him, and it worked out exactly perfectly. Um, as I predicted up to that point, uh, he told me in our first meeting that he was looking for retirement.

Clint Eisenhower: And, uh, as soon as I got my, my feet under me, he would be happy to go off into the sunset and, uh, we'd, we'd go that direction. 

Michael Lee: Gotcha. 

Clint Eisenhower: So, uh, you know, that's the way things worked out, uh, after the first week or so I was acclimated. I went to him and said, I'd like to move on with some meetings where you can introduce me to the people that I need to know and so forth.

Clint Eisenhower: And he said, well, you know, uh, I'm involved in a project right now, but, uh, we'll, we'll get to that. Well, after a week or [00:05:00] so, nothing had happened. So I pressed him again. He set up a meeting and I set up a couple of meetings and the first one, Um, Uh, I thought it was kind of strange, but he, he introduced me, but he said nothing about his retirement and nothing about why I was there, which was a little awkward.

And 

Clint Eisenhower: then when that happened in the second meeting, uh, I sort of knew something was up, something was afoot. So I went to him that afternoon and I said, um, you know, this is, we apparently are not on the same page here. Uh, something is blocking our transition path. And, uh, it may be because you think I'm not the right guy, uh, or, uh, whatever it is, uh, I want to talk about it.

Clint Eisenhower: Well, he immediately got defensive and very angry and said, well, you're just coming after me, aren't you? Uh, and it was a reaction that, uh, I thought was completely inappropriate, but, uh, and so then I got a little torqued up about it, quite frankly. And we had [00:06:00] a, um, Somewhat of an uncomfortable conversation that led really to an argument after that.

Clint Eisenhower: But toward the end of it, he more or less sort of admitted that he just wasn't ready to retire. And so I, um, we sort of left it at that, and we both realized that we probably said more things than we needed to. And so I went back to my office, called the CEO who had recruited me, told him about the conversation.

Clint Eisenhower: And by this time, of course, I had Bought a new house, moved my family. And so I said, look, you know, this is not what I signed up for. And it's a sort of a needless overlap here. And so, uh, something needs to happen. Well, it did. He took care of it. And the next day, this guy announced his retirement in another week.

Clint Eisenhower: And, uh, and that's what happened. But then he had been, uh, the representative of the company and several industry and civic organizations. He continued that. And. [00:07:00] Represent and went on to represent some issues that with the authority of the company that was inappropriate. And so I had to call him and tell him to stand down 

Michael Lee: sort of sabotaging your ability to do that role as well.

Clint Eisenhower: Right. And so, uh, as you can imagine, we did not end on a relationship on a good note. And I really regret that because I, I did admire the guy. But what I realized afterwards were two things. First of all, Uh, he, you know, retirement is very traumatic, uh, for a lot of people if they don't plan correctly and he just didn't want to give up the relevancy, uh, and all the things that went with that position.

Clint Eisenhower: We see that happening now in our politics and in government and a lot of different, uh, directions. Uh, and so, you know, that really had an impact on me and it changed the way I retired ultimately. 

Yeah. 

Clint Eisenhower: Um, the second thing, though, is that. [00:08:00] You know, it's, it's, it was hurtful to, to both of us. And perhaps I, I didn't handle it correctly.

Clint Eisenhower: I didn't handle it, uh, a way that could have been more productive, uh, for everyone. And maybe I was a little too naive. Maybe I should have had more, uh, details around the transition process and so forth. But, um, at any rate, that, that was my confrontation, my argument and my story. 

Michael Lee: Thanks for that. Um, I have two lines of questioning the your phrase retirement.

Michael Lee: I was traumatic. You give up your relevancy. I want to come back to that. So let's put a pin in that for a moment. The second thing you said that really struck me was about where you look, not just to this person, because I think it's easy from the outside looking in, at least as I hear the story, I think you were kind of hoodwinked by somebody who hadn't done enough self reflection to realize that they were ready to move on.

Michael Lee: And so you're this fake successor. [00:09:00] And you move your family and yourself states and states away and up into your life for a false promise, like a mirage in the desert. And so it's hard for me to hear that story and not kind of be mad for you. I mean, putting myself in that position, I would be, I mean, apoplectic, right?

Michael Lee: To say the least. And then I also hear you have some sympathy for this. For this guy. And then you, and then you take some of this on yourself as well. When you say maybe I didn't handle it correctly. So say more about the, the, I didn't handle it correctly. Your own self reflection about your role in this dynamic, because on the outside looking in, it seems a little bit like you were duped and then now you, as the person who was duped is saying, well.

Michael Lee: It was kind of my fault, too, for being duped. 

Clint Eisenhower: Well, I just always wonder, uh, you know, when you have a confrontation or argument, uh, with someone, uh, you know, it's very likely that, uh, you know, we never know what that person has gone through or is going through. We never know, you know, what [00:10:00] kind of baggage they're bringing to the table.

Clint Eisenhower: Um, I was very excited about this opportunity, very much looking forward to it. And, uh, I sort of got, uh, I imagine a little over, over, uh, And, um, I, you know, perhaps I could have, uh, done it a little better. Perhaps, you know, the three of us that were involved in this thing, perhaps we all could have done it a little better.

Clint Eisenhower: Um, but I regret not having a relationship with this guy anymore. Um, I, I continue to think that he was, uh, that, that what really drove the, the blockage was his. An ability to, uh, really, or, or, you know, his, his lack of readiness in terms of this, uh, really a life change that he was going to experience. And, uh, so, and I get that now, uh, having gone through retirement myself, I get that, but I think that's, uh, [00:11:00] something that.

Clint Eisenhower: That we all need to wrestle with as we go through all the changes that we go through in life. And, um, you know, it's not always fun to, as we can see in, you know, a lot of our political leaders now, because they're certainly in the public, right? And they don't want to give up the reins. Um, they think they've got gas in the tank left and they want to, they want to push forward 

and 

Clint Eisenhower: it's, and it's difficult.

Clint Eisenhower: But, um, it's, you know, none of us are, the world can't do without us. Right. We're, we're all, uh, can be replaced. So that was sort of my takeaway. 

Michael Lee: And that's, that's a great transition to the second thing I wanted to talk about, which is the sympathy you feel for this guy, even despite being kind of hoodwinked.

Michael Lee: In terms of facing the irrelevancy, Aris irrelevancy of of retirement, the kind of trauma of retreating from the public stage. And then, and then hearing you talk about this, I [00:12:00] introduced you as the South Carolina State Chair of the Forward Party pushing for, it's a centrist movement that you're trying to lead, but that is also fairly revolutionary in terms of upending the two party structure in American politics.

Michael Lee: If you were wildly successful. The result would be maybe centrism, but also it would be fairly revolutionary in terms of the way that our politics are organized. And so, and you're doing that all in retirement. That's 

Clint Eisenhower: right. So, um, and I, I think that does have some relevancy to it because, um, you know, I don't want to be irrelevant in retirement either.

Clint Eisenhower: Uh, I don't think anyone does. And I think, uh, one of the things that as if we're. If we're, um, uh, sort of, uh, the, the, the kind of people who want to make a difference, want to change, we look for ways to, to stay relevant. And, um, so I've been doing this work now for, uh, we stood the party up three years ago and, um, already I, [00:13:00] you know, I'm, I'm looking for my replacement.

Clint Eisenhower: Because the world moves on, the world changes. And, uh, you know, I think as, as a, as a leader. Uh, we need to be, uh, recognize the, the, the fact that, uh, you know, as things change, we're not always, uh, relevant and always, um, the, the, the person to. Meet the challenge of today. Now we might be able to advise, to, uh, offer advice and, and counsel and, and wisdom and those sorts of things.

Clint Eisenhower: And those are all good and very valuable, but that doesn't mean we have to be the guy in the, in the chair. 

Michael Lee: How hard will it be for you to, to accept that your replacement is ready to do your job and then really, truly fade into the sunset? 

Clint Eisenhower: Well, I recognize that there will be, uh, that I will have some, uh, heartburn about it, I'm [00:14:00] sure, but I also, uh, can't wait to, to fulfill other roles, uh, in that, in, in the same, under the same umbrella and, you know, there, there are many other things that I can do that I look forward to doing, uh, that, that will, that will keep me involved, but it's, uh, um, You know, that's just part of life.

Clint Eisenhower: It's something that we all got to continue to do, to strive forward and to, you know, to not be complacent, but to be involved. At the level where, where we can, uh, you know, reach our, our, our best potential for everyone concerned. 

Michael Lee: And to use your metaphor of gas in the tank and some of the resistance of fading into quote, irrelevancy and retirement is a, is a kind of continued belief in self efficacy, it's not just a fear there, it's also a self belief that you've still got a lot to contribute and to say, and so from your activities and from your, your statements here.

Michael Lee: strikes me that you believe that you [00:15:00] still have a lot of gas in the tank. 

Clint Eisenhower: Well, you know, I certainly hope so, but I also, I'm in a better position now that I'm a little older and that I have this perspective to recognize what my shortcomings are. And so, for instance, uh, in this political, uh, party that we're trying to build, uh, we need young people.

Clint Eisenhower: We need, uh, you know, people who are going to, to have the energy and have very different perspectives than we do. And sometimes I don't know exactly the right way to, to communicate that. I'm not sure that I have that, uh, that I'm facile in the tools of social media and all those, you know, the new ways of communication, uh, and communication used to be my business, but it, I'm, I'm not sure that I'm as, as good as I need to be now.

Clint Eisenhower: To meet the challenges that we, that we have. So, um, I still have some things to offer, but I also recognize that we, you know, we need a broad, [00:16:00] this is a broad tent, uh, effort and we need other voices, other people stepping up and, and, you know, taking the leadership roles. 

Michael Lee: One of the things I'm hearing from you is kind of a consistent.

Michael Lee: Faith in the power of work and effort and movement. And so you said we can't be complacent. We have to be involved. We have to reach our full potential. Why not just spend some time in retirement on a fishing dock? 

Clint Eisenhower: So I did that. 

Michael Lee: Okay. 

Clint Eisenhower: Uh, I did that for about three years and, uh, and it was, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

Clint Eisenhower: I enjoy every fish that I caught. I enjoyed every round of golf that I played. But, uh, I also am so thankful that Even though it was a very difficult, uh, thing that drove me to this challenge, uh, [00:17:00] I'm appreciative of that because it, uh, sort of, you know, I needed to answer that call and, and, uh, I'm still, I continue to do that and I'm, I'm convinced that, uh, there is a lane for our success, uh, as a third party and American politics today.

Clint Eisenhower: I think we're screaming for it. We know that 70 percent of the people in this country are dissatisfied. They're disaffected voters and they want, uh, they want something different. Uh, I think that that is what we're building and we're building it from the ground up, not the top down. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and you've, and just in terms of your own involvement in this, you, you started this with a story about a, a personal conflict, but now you've picked an even bigger institutional challenge, to put it mildly, the kind of like twin death stars of American politics, which is the two party system, which rules the roost, and so that's got to feel both [00:18:00] exciting and perhaps pretty daunting, and then um, Yeah.

Michael Lee: You know, your chances of success are probably, I'm guessing, fairly long term. 

Clint Eisenhower: It's a generational strategy. Uh, you know, I wake up every morning and, um, you know, I have, uh, a few moments of feeling of wondering whether or not I want to tilt at windmills today, but I go out and I do it because the, you know, all I have to do is turn on the news and I, and I immediately I'm reminded of exactly why I'm doing it, exactly what is fueling this, uh, 

uh, 

Clint Eisenhower: this effort.

Clint Eisenhower: And, and I'll tell you the other thing that is, uh, has been an unforeseen benefit in this, uh, to me, and that is that as we have, uh, broadened the, uh, our community across the state, and now we, you know, we have almost 4, 000 folks, but we have an inner circle of about 25 people, and now we What, what started out as a movement still is a movement, but [00:19:00] now it's about the people it's about, you know, I have made friends that I would never have made.

Clint Eisenhower: I've made, I have a circle of relationships that are incredibly important to me. And that's what, uh, begins to take over, uh, you know, from just the cause. That makes sense. 

Michael Lee: Let's tie this together. The relationship between your. Your current revolutionary centrism, your raging centrism and your organizational efforts on behalf of that, and this really important conflict in your professional life quite some time ago.

Michael Lee: What have you learned about successful conflict now that you're very much in the political conflict business? Um, what have you learned about successful conflict over a lifetime, including the story you told at the top of this episode that informs the work that you're doing now on behalf of the forward party?

Clint Eisenhower: Well, that's I keep trying to draw lessons from everything that I've learned and try to, uh, be a better communicator because of that. [00:20:00] One of the things that I think is very important that I've learned is that when we see blockages in what we're trying to make happen. 

Yeah. 

Clint Eisenhower: It's important to be direct about that and, and to call them out for what they are, but to also call them out with compassion and with a sense of, uh, humility.

Clint Eisenhower: Uh, understanding that, that, as I said earlier, you know, we, we, we all bring different, uh, circumstances and baggages to every experience and we need to understand that the people we might have disagreements with that seem to be blocking us, maybe there are reasons that, that we don't understand and that, uh, that Conversation, you know, and, and a, uh, civility about the way we conduct ourselves can, can bring that out.

Clint Eisenhower: And, you know, I usually find that they're, they're [00:21:00] very, um, easily explained circumstances when I'm frustrated about something and when I, when I actually call the person or go see the person or have lunch with the person. And we talk about it. I find that it's, it's not the blockage that I thought it was, you know, you know, this example that I used from 20 years ago, it seems to be now sort of an extreme, but at the same time that, you know, there, there's not a more extreme times in my lifetime that I can remember that, uh, as far as politics in our country go and, and, uh, but you have to learn how to talk to people and how to, uh, yeah.

Clint Eisenhower: Engage with people in a way that, uh, that allows them to be who they are as well. That's that sounds kind of new agey. I'm not sure, but you get what I mean. 

Michael Lee: I do. And it's a wonderful new age clothes. Clint Eisenhower. Thank you so much for [00:22:00] being on when we disagree. 

Clint Eisenhower: Thank 

Michael Lee: you, Michael. When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee.

Michael Lee: Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.