The Gun

Aly Kenny has been teaching manners and mindfulness classes for 10 years and has a popular Instagram account (@chasingcivility) devoted to these subjects. Aly had to face her own manners and mindfulness crisis not too long ago.  She was having some work done in her house, and she was shocked when the handyman showed up carrying tools, a ladder, and a gun at his side.  When she posted about her reaction to the gun in her house on Instagram, the amount of negativity she faced was staggering. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. In the 1970s, a Stanford psychologist designed an interesting experiment. He would get a group of children, aged 4 to 6, and one by one, he'd put a marshmallow or a piece of candy on the table in front of them.

Michael Lee: He told the kids that they could have the treat immediately if they wanted, just grab it. But, if they waited 15 minutes and didn't eat the marshmallow or piece of candy, they could have a second treat. There were all kinds of conclusions to be drawn about the kids who waited, and then the kids who didn't.

Michael Lee: But what made this study most famous, most influential in the history of behavioral psychology, actually didn't happen until well after the original study in the 70s, but later into the 80s and 90s. When the researchers followed up with the kids from the original study, they found that the ones who held off from eating had A, [00:01:00] higher grades, and B, fewer behavioral issues in school and with the law.

Michael Lee: In short, It seemed like the early ability to delay gratification could predict future life success. Now, to be clear, the researchers noted in these new papers that they weren't writing prescriptions for parenting, or for educational institutions, or for government. And that they had wished they had done the experiment on more kids, the sample size was kind of limited.

Michael Lee: And they also noted some more limitations. But some education psychologists and policy makers ran with their conclusions and invested heavily in character building programs, character education programs, teaching willpower, self control, and the like. But here's the thing. When a completely different researcher went back to see if he could replicate and verify the marshmallow test, he came up pretty empty.

Michael Lee: He found half the correlation between the early self control between ages four and six and later life achievements, And when he controlled for a [00:02:00] variety of family backgrounds, not just those who happened to be in a Stanford University daycare in the early 1970s and came to that study, there was almost no correlation between delayed gratification and life success whatsoever.

Michael Lee: The new study didn't flip the old one on its head completely, but it did make the results of the original marshmallow test so small. that it's hard to see much value. So why am I telling this story? Well, for years and years, scientists have been rewarded for publishing new research, especially ones with flashy findings like the marshmallow test.

Michael Lee: But over the past decade or so, a new movement has taken hold to replicate these old studies across the sciences and see what we actually know, and see what we can actually prove and reprove. And guess what? A lot of the old studies are either inflated, were conducted poorly or flat out wrong, and some, very few, but some have been the result of clear deception on behalf of the researcher.

Michael Lee: This [00:03:00] new research has created something called the replication crisis among scientists, and some have even wondered about whether this crisis compromises public trust in science. Trust pulls aside, however, What this story and this broader crisis represent is not just one overblown study or a flawed publication system, but the success, over the long term, of some of the values of rational and reasonable arguments that we've covered.

Michael Lee: Our collective attempt to be transparent about our evidence. Our attempt to minimize bias through objectivity. Our attempt to stay true to a reproducible method. Our attempt to adopt a healthy skepticism about our conclusions. And our attempt to introduce some competition into the selection process can, over time, help reduce error and make more plausible conclusions about a big, confusing world.

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When [00:04:00] We Disagree is Allie Kinney. She's the owner of Low Country Manners and she has been teaching manners and mindfulness classes for the past 10 years. She can be found on the web at LowCountryManners.

Michael Lee: com. And on Instagram at chasing civility, Ali, tell us an argument story. 

Aly Kenny: Okay. So this happened last spring. I was getting some lighting done, exterior lighting done on my home. And because of the process, we had to have some drywall put up on the interior side. So I. hired a contractor, he's actually a local neighborhood contractor that had done work on other friends homes as well.

Aly Kenny: And all week long he came to do the work with an assistant. And then on the last day, he had just sent his assistant, I had already run out for an errand. So I came home to the assistant already. At our home, inside the home working, so I come inside with my two young children, and the first thing I notice is that he has a loaded gun and a knife strapped [00:05:00] to his waist.

Michael Lee: What is he doing? He's just working. 

Aly Kenny: He's finishing up the drywall inside. 

Michael Lee: And you see that he's armed. 

Aly Kenny: Yes, he's up on the ladder. I see he's armed. And. I didn't think I would react like this, but I became a little panicky. Um, I felt uneasy. I felt nervous. I didn't, I felt a little confused on what to do or what to say.

Aly Kenny: And so I packed up my kids and left. And, um, I did some research to see, is he in the right to come to my home with a loaded gun? Maybe he, maybe he does have the right to do that, or maybe he doesn't, and I want to know more. So I actually called the non emergency, I think, um, police, Mount Pleasant, which is the town we live in in Charleston, South Carolina, police, and asked them, does he have the right?

Aly Kenny: And they said, no, he does not have the right, and if you're uncomfortable, you can tell him if he continues to wear it, call us, and we can do something about it. And so I called, I [00:06:00] called his boss, who I, the guy who I hired, my neighborhood contractor, and I just said, listen, I just want to let you know your, your, your assistant showed up with a gun today inside my home.

Aly Kenny: It made me feel uncomfortable, but this is actually something I talk about sorta with my Instagram account. And it could be a cool experiment just to sit down and just understand where he was coming from. And I wanted to be open minded and understand his side. My dog scared him. Maybe, I don't know, maybe he'd come from a site that he didn't feel comfortable at.

Aly Kenny: Maybe we could have a talk about this. Oh, and by the way, tell him to leave it at home tomorrow when he shows up. I wanted to also set that boundary. And his response was, and I thought we were really going to sit down and have this open conversation. His response was, okay, I'm going to pass this on to him.

Aly Kenny: Just so you know, he was, um, X'd. Who have something with the military and it's his constitutional right if he chooses. There we go. And I thought, [00:07:00] okay, there'll probably be no open conversation. So the next day when he showed up, I was not there. I went to Starbucks and made a little reel and just probably a little bit venting.

Aly Kenny: Just said, hey guys, this is the situation. Um, you know, I teach manners, I teach mindfulness, there is a difference between social and professional etiquette, and he's breaking both, in my opinion, no different than showing up smoking, it's unprofessional, and FYI, it's also illegal, posted it and that's where the situation comes in.

Aly Kenny: So posted it, it went viral and I received hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comments at first. Um, even the ones that agreed, like agree to disagree sort of thing. And then it just went ugly where I actually had to delete, I'd take the comments down for a couple of days just to protect my mental health.

Aly Kenny: It went from, um. [00:08:00] Why, why don't you make him a sandwich and shut up? To, I don't know, all sorts of really, really negative, horrible comments on the situation. 

Michael Lee: Coming from a perspective of You, you were overly sensitive, or you're stepping out of line, or you're denying his God given right. All of it. All of the above.

Michael Lee: All of 

Aly Kenny: it was, I'm, I'm a crybaby, I'm wrong, um, why don't I get a gun and carry it to protect myself, like, like I have two, I have a one and a three year old at home. I can barely think most mornings, you think, I'm gonna have a loaded gun on me, that would be the answer. I'm Probably not. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, let me take a look.

Michael Lee: So there's like a, a fascinating kind of cascade here between an initial disagreement, charged disagreement with a man with a loaded gun in your house, who's kind of nonchalantly has a [00:09:00] loaded gun, right? Because he's on a ladder. You have a totally deserved, warranted, felt sense of unsafety for you and your kids leave.

Michael Lee: The police tell you that you have to do the confronting, even though he's breaking the law? I need, I want to come back to that for just a second. 

Aly Kenny: Yeah, and that's, a lot of the comments were why, a lot of the comments were pointing out, why didn't you just go to him? Why'd you go to his boss? Like, who are you to go to his boss?

Aly Kenny: I'm like, who am I to approach someone who could possibly be confrontational, who I know has a gun, when I have children. Yeah, it got to the point, actually, where there were so many people questioning what I had posted and saying like, no, he wasn't in the wrong, that At a point, I had already spoken to the cops, but I reached out to a couple of lawyers because I, I think that was the definition of gaslighting.

Aly Kenny: Like I'm a pretty self confident, 37 year old mother of two children. [00:10:00] And I was starting to believe like these people that maybe they were right. And I think that's why this conversation is important because if. I can fall victim to that. Think about what adolescents are falling victim to every day on social media.

Michael Lee: That's right. And it's hard to sort of know with, with laws, like let's say gun laws or something else where these property protections, both for your home and somebody who's carrying personal property in the form of a weapon. change. They do change. Um, can you take it into work? Can you take it into your car and the parking lot at work?

Michael Lee: And that really changes in different localities and states. And that's a lot 

Aly Kenny: of people didn't know I was posting from South Carolina. Right. And, um, here, I believe some churches you can, some you can't, but schools, concert venues, I actually saw a sign outside your building at the call to Charleston. Yeah.

Aly Kenny: And private residence. Right. You cannot or you have to express permission first. Right. And that's still just people, I guess, don't [00:11:00] understand that or don't want to understand it. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. Share some of the comments you were getting if you don't mind. 

Aly Kenny: Sure. I hope he used your bathroom and didn't flush. 

Michael Lee: Wow.

Aly Kenny: You are scared and weak if you are scared of a gun. 

Michael Lee: Delightful. 

Aly Kenny: Finish the job yourself, Karen. And then this is a vomit emoji. That's what your platform is doing to me. Oh no, a gun. Suck it up, Cinderella. In the event of a home break in while he was there, you would have been safe. Your feelings are irrelevant.

Aly Kenny: Shut up, lady. And that, I mean, that was just a handful. There's hundreds. 

Michael Lee: Tip of the iceberg. And in a moment, you thought that perhaps because you do work in this area around manners and mindfulness, etiquette, civility. You do trainings, classes, camps for, for children and some adults too. And then your Instagram account, which is quite popular, talks a lot about these issues and how people seeing the world from other people's point of view, [00:12:00] giving charitable interpretations of situations, perhaps not being quick to rush to judgment and label somebody.

Michael Lee: And all of these kinds of lessons that we talk about on this show quite a bit. And in this moment you think, well, there's a man with a gun in my home and I feel unsafe. period. And also, perhaps, maybe there's a conversation to be had here and we can talk about this and be mindful about it. 

Aly Kenny: I think I just finished an empathy lesson with my kids maybe that week before, and I'm thinking, oh, here's a perfect example for me to put myself in someone else's shoes.

Aly Kenny: That's 

Michael Lee: right. And then And then that becomes a non starter for a variety of reasons, and then you think, well, I will then still talk about this issue on Instagram, hopefully in a way that can still inspire the discussion, even if it's not a bilateral dynamic between you and the man with the gun or his boss or the cops.

Michael Lee: And then that goes, let's say, with a lack of civility. 

Aly Kenny: Yeah, well, and then that then I think it becomes less about the gun and the law, even though that's important [00:13:00] to and more about what has happened on social media with our lack of diplomacy and this lost art to be able to Disagree or disagree with being disagreeable.

Aly Kenny: Yeah, 

Michael Lee: it's sort of like being comfortable, being uncomfortable, right? And being agreeable, being in disagreement. 

Aly Kenny: And because for the majority of these were adults, grown men and women, women coming at me, um, quite harshly. And yeah, then it opened a kind of can of worms of, okay. What's happening? What's I, my, I always go to like, hurt people or Hurt, hurt others.

Aly Kenny: Right. So what's going on with you? Yeah. And then how do I now navigate these comments and what's the etiquette of responding to them? Do I or Don, what did you do? I respond, I thought about it for a while. I did not wanna, I didn't wanna respond in the time because it would've been a heated response. So I took some time to think about it, and I responded kind of how I respond to my toddlers, [00:14:00] which is the comments that I felt like I wanted to respond to.

Aly Kenny: I just said, hey, um, similar to how I talk to my toddlers, I see you have big feelings about this, all feelings are acceptable, all behaviors are not, and cyberbullying is unacceptable. Period. 

Michael Lee: And then, did they respond? 

Aly Kenny: No. No. A lot of times they did not. They wanted more of a reaction. 

Michael Lee: Did you respond to all of them?

Aly Kenny: I couldn't. I don't think I've even read all the comments. Sure. There's too many. 

Michael Lee: And eventually you deleted some comments. 

Aly Kenny: I deleted the threatening ones. There was one that said, that gun would look better in your mouth. Wow. That got deleted. Um, did a little, did a little digging because I thought, Okay, if you can post that, I want to know where you work.

Aly Kenny: I want to maybe reach out to your employer. Sure. Um, don't think you can do that and not get away with it. I love that. So, yeah, there is a line to be drawn. And there were some people who definitely crossed that line. 

Michael Lee: Let's talk about you because I have such curiosity about why people [00:15:00] behave that way but we can't get into all of their heads and it sounds like there is a lot of them so it would take quite some time.

Michael Lee: We'd just be speculating about what's going on in the mind of the toxic internet troll on this issue. And so let's just talk about you. So you have a kind of faith. Let me just put words in your mouth for a second. But it seems like from your work, you've been doing this work with adults and children around etiquette, civility, mindfulness, manners, et cetera.

Michael Lee: For quite some time, you've built a career out of it and you have a public following on Instagram. And so it seems to me like you have a real faith in the process of reason giving and back and forth and human beings ability to see eye to eye, even if we disagree about something really powerfully. 

Aly Kenny: I do.

Michael Lee: And you've dedicated your life to it. And you have a public platform to talk about the potential of all of us to come together along different lines. And then you do this, and you get the nastiest stuff back at you, times a million. How does that, [00:16:00] does, how does that affect your faith in the process of chasing civility?

Aly Kenny: Well, it's a funny turn of events. A week later, they had to come back and fix something. And I was home and I did have a conversation with separately with both the contractor and his assistant. And the one on one conversation was. Incredible. Um, the assistant apologized from the bottom of his heart. He said, I am so sorry.

Aly Kenny: I would never have done that if I was thinking I just wasn't thinking that morning. Um, we were a, he, there was a situation in Charleston where I think it was a father and a child. We're at a construction site and we're, one of them were shot and killed and they brought that up. So that's been kind of a reasoning for them.

Aly Kenny: They understood my reasoning. Um, yeah, it was a good conversation after all of this, which if these commenters, that's, that was the hard part. I'm like [00:17:00] the person who did it himself was even able to come on. Come around and come to terms and have a good civil conversation. But you don't get that chance when it's on social media.

Michael Lee: Did you post about the, the reconnecting conversation? 

Aly Kenny: I edited the real, um, a couple of weeks later. And I think I did say, and by the way, we had a conversation and it was great. Yeah. Able to come to terms and. 

Michael Lee: And then the volume of commenters, 

Aly Kenny: they did die down, 

Michael Lee: they died down, but that 

Aly Kenny: just, I think happened, they, it's probably the longest amount of comment and another, uh, people were like, you're just trying to get followers.

Aly Kenny: This probably didn't even happen, which is why I put the picture, I covered his head and neck, even down to his shoulders, but. You do get accused of making it up, which is why I included a little image. But yeah, people said, you're just trying to get, go viral, get followers. I think I lost about a thousand after posting that, but that didn't really discourage me from doing it.

Michael Lee: Did you get a volume of positive [00:18:00] comments that matched the negative comments at least? 

Aly Kenny: I did, especially in my DMs, hundreds of people reached out and support as 

Michael Lee: well. Okay. All right. It's not just an avalanche of negativity. 

Aly Kenny: Right. 

Michael Lee: So coming back to the faith thing, and I'll share this to just having researched this for quite some time and practice it a bit on the show and, um, in the community and on campuses.

Michael Lee: I can find lots of reasons to have a faith in the interpersonal process of depolarization, of bridge building, of connecting across lines of difference, of having healthy conflict, of promoting dialogue. If it's one on one, one on four, small groups. I can find myself having an incredible amount of suspicion of our ability to do that at scale on TV, on YouTube, on social media.

Michael Lee: What are your thoughts, having done both, being a practitioner in both spaces? 

Aly Kenny: Yeah, definitely. [00:19:00] Social media, it becomes its own kind of ugly monster sometimes. One on one, in person, I think you're definitely better off. 

Michael Lee: Mm hmm. And why do you think that is? 

Aly Kenny: Because we will hide behind their keyboards. I don't know why people kind of sometimes have the audacity to say what they say.

Aly Kenny: Um, I think this is probably a talk for another day, but it comes back to parenting and how they were spoken to as children, parent, my generation is trying to change that we're speaking, we're doing the whole more gentle, respectful parenting, because a lot of times I would think when people would say some of these terrible comments, like someone said that to them at some point, and it was probably a parent.

Aly Kenny: Yeah. It could come 

Michael Lee: out of a deeply old felt sense of worthlessness that could have been inculcated at an incredibly young age. That's what I believe. Or perhaps there are bots that don't even exist. 

Aly Kenny: That could be true too. This 

Michael Lee: is hard to know. How does it, how has this moment, [00:20:00] how did this charged moment on the internet, at least on social media changed the way that you talk about issues of civility?

Michael Lee: in your public profile? 

Aly Kenny: I think moving forward, I'll probably stay away from politically charged issues, um, in general, because that's not my focus. It's not my background. Yeah. And just kind of stick to the principles that make up manners and etiquette that I've been teaching for the past 10 years. The lessons on empathy, forgiveness, gratitude, Um, I might not, I'm not saying I'll never bring up these issues, but yeah, I'll definitely think twice before posting about them.

Michael Lee: You stay a little bit in a more, stay in my lane, yeah, that's what I was going to say, you stay in a little narrower lane now, do you ever find that these, a lane that you have now self designed to be explicitly apolitical can become politicized around issues of, Parenting or even as you were saying the [00:21:00] younger generation is promoting gentle parenting I could hear a troll in my head saying exactly and that's why the world's going to hell in a handbasket It's cuz these kids are weak and these parents are snowflakes.

Aly Kenny: Yeah, I'll post something on gentle parenting and you'll get the comment Well, I was Right. 

Michael Lee: That's a good line. Yeah. So you do find that politics sort of sneaks in and it can become toxifying, but it's not even remotely the same as you taking on, you being perceived as taking on gun rights. 

Aly Kenny: Right. 

Michael Lee: Not even remotely close.

Aly Kenny: Oh, I'm not touching that, probably, for a while. 

Michael Lee: Well said. Allie Kinney, thanks so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Aly Kenny: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. [00:22:00] com.