COVID Protocols

Techa Smalls-Brown was working on her Ph.D. during the COVID crisis. When one of Techa's friends and fellow doctoral students tested positive for COVID, the ensuing dispute over whether and how to interact in a tight space threatened their relationship.   

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. What does it mean to be reasonable? What does it mean to approach a problem rationally? Or to make a rational argument. There are lots of ways to answer this question and to be clear, none of them are perfect just because you're being reasonable doesn't mean you won't make a mistake sometimes or eliminate every possible bias, but one of them is transparency.

Michael Lee: That is you show your work, show your thinking, show your sources, show your evidence. Transparency is democracy in action. Because the audience is invited to look at, to examine, and judge the process by which you came to a conclusion. A simple example is a math test. If your teacher asked you on a test what 10.

Michael Lee: 678 x 14. 734 is, [00:01:00] and you just wrote 157. 33 without showing how you got that answer, Some suspicion might arise. Or let's say I told you I was certain that some specific type of cryptocurrency would double in value next year. You ask, how do I know that? And I say, I just do. I just know it. You push even harder, and I say, well, I know somebody in the Securities and Exchange Commission, and they told me.

Michael Lee: You push even harder, skeptically, and ask who that person is. What they told me, when they told me, but then I stonewall you. I can't tell you any details, I say. I can only tell you the conclusion, and you should just trust me on this one. Whether I'm right or wrong, whether you think my conclusion is plausible or not, I'm not being very transparent.

Michael Lee: It's as if I had a revelation about the universe while I was by myself in a cave, and nobody was around to see my mystical experience, and they just kind of have to take my word for it. A lack of [00:02:00] transparency isn't always about outright deception. about inventing a false reality. It's also about strategic concealment, and it's designed to confuse, surprise, or delay.

Michael Lee: Someone who wants to delay defining a romantic relationship, for instance, or a business, and this should come as absolutely no shock to Americans with experience in healthcare, a business that has no public price list. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative.

Michael Lee: At the college of Charleston. Our guest today on when we disagree is Tisha Smalls Brown. She is an educator and the director of the sisters of Septima, which is a teacher leadership development program for women of color. Tisha, tell us an argument story. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Okay. Let me think. Uh, I've been thinking about this a little bit and this argument story.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I wouldn't say it's an argument. It was just a disagreement, but it was something that kind of just fell [00:03:00] off and it was never resolved. So this happened around 2022. So basically, or maybe 2021, it was like the pandemic is a blur still, but it was during, during that time or shortly after, um, I am in a PhD program right now and it's a low residency program.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So I had to travel to my residency and this was the first time I drove kind of across country. I'm in South Carolina. So I drove by myself, took a road trip alone, solo to Ohio. 

Michael Lee: Okay, 

Techa Smalls-Brown: and it was a 10 hour drive. So, you know, anticipation of, you know, driving and meeting my cohort mates and, um, in my doc program.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So I had planned to. Get a roommate and rent an Airbnb. So I did and rented an Airbnb in a little town That's not far from the campus at the time. Our school was in [00:04:00] Yellow Springs, Ohio So I was in a little town called Xenia, which is about 10 10 miles away from Yellow Springs from the campus So I'm kind of rural Ohio kind of suburban but cool area and I had a cool place and and I had the roommate she was in my cohort and we decided you know, we're gonna Spend the week together, uh, had never, like, spent that much time together before, we had just been friends and you know, develop a friendship through our, our PhD and our studies.

Techa Smalls-Brown: And so, uh, I arrived at the, at the Airbnb early, kind of got a set up and had groceries and the whole thing. And we're going to just, you know, learn this week and hang out and cook and just, you know, bond as, as, as friends. So, uh, the pandemic. Had ended, but it was still like lurking in the air. People were still like wearing masks and, you know, people still like on alert.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So, um, about day three of our residency, which we were like [00:05:00] driving back and forth to the campus because I had my car because I drove and she flew in from like L. A. She lived in Los Angeles. So she flew in and, um, I was like responsible for driving us around. So I, you know, it was cool. I had the car. So it drove us places and we were together a lot, um, as, as, you know, also in our, our cohort with our group.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So, uh, about maybe Wednesday of that week, people started coming down with COVID. And it was kind of weird because, you know, here we were, it was like still in a, like a twilight zone kind of feel with everyone. No one knew what was going on. They were still trying to like, figure this thing out. Um, the height of the, of the virus had kind of died down, but it was still like waves, you know, people would have like these outbreaks and then stuff would shut down.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So that kind of happened with, with our cohort. Um, One person [00:06:00] got sick. One guy was flying in as soon as he got there, tested, they were testing people as we came in and he tested positive. So he had to get back on the plane and go back home. 

Michael Lee: They had positive person back on the plane. Yeah. They had to 

Techa Smalls-Brown: leave.

Techa Smalls-Brown: He couldn't stay, you know, with the group. So the group, we had about 20, 21 people in our group. 

Michael Lee: Right. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: So with the professors interacting, you know, all the classes and learning and stuff like that is very close. 

Michael Lee: Proximity 

Techa Smalls-Brown: with everyone 

Michael Lee: when such a weird lifeboat ethics situation to like this person's positive.

Michael Lee: Let's put them back in the airport They can't be they can't be on our life. No 

Techa Smalls-Brown: So did that he had it then the next day somebody else popped up Positive and people were just like dropping like I gotta go back. I gotta go back home or either They stayed in Ohio, but stayed in their hotel. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, 

Techa Smalls-Brown: but you know kind of isolated from everybody that happened to So, um, the roommate, the person I [00:07:00] had, she got sick and it was very contentious.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Uh, she was very upset. Um, I felt that she blamed me for even like, Asking her to come to Ohio because she had been traveling and she was planning for like an international move. She was moving to another country and you know, all the things she was selling her home and she was doing all this stuff. 

Michael Lee: How did she blame you?

Techa Smalls-Brown: She blamed me because I would, you know, I got the Airbnb. I, you know, said, you know, She had trepidation about coming out. She's like, I got too much going on. You know, I just don't want to do this residency I don't want to come to Ohio. My life is in, you know, Los Angeles. I got to do all this stuff And so I don't even want to come she was just like and I was like nah You need to come where you know the program and I kind of convinced her Okay, and then she was like, all right since you're asking [00:08:00] I'll come So I felt she, when she got COVID, she, she was angry.

Michael Lee: She's mad at you. She's 

Techa Smalls-Brown: mad at me. Oh, she was angry at me. And, uh, we were living together. So we had separate rooms, but I, that was the first time I ever slept in a face mask. And I, I, I. That was just, it was just a bizarre situation. We, we couldn't find a, she had to get tested and we had to find a CVS and we were in a different town and she was sitting in the backseat of the car and it was just odd, you know, driving around trying to find testing sites that would take her and, you know, 

Michael Lee: Right.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Being out from out of state and the insurance. It was just wild. 

Michael Lee: Did you feel like you were in a sci fi movie? I 

Techa Smalls-Brown: really did. Like when is it going to end? What is this? What is this? You know, we're in this, I've never been to this part of Ohio, this part of the country. And we're driving around and it was just [00:09:00] like a, it was just odd.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So she eventually got the test. The tests were still free at the time, but it was still like finding a testing site, getting the results back quick enough, you know, um, I, at first I went out and got medicine for her, 

Michael Lee: you 

Techa Smalls-Brown: know, I was driving around trying to find theraflu and, um, you know, just like, cause she came down with like symptoms.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Like flu likes, you know, how it comes on, you know, right. 

Michael Lee: Did you feel guilty? Were you driving her around, um, because as a, as a friend, but also did you feel guilty for 

Techa Smalls-Brown: obligated in a sense? Because I had the car, she didn't have a way to get around. 

Michael Lee: Right. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Um, so I was like, you know what? Um, and I was going.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I went to, to class one day, she stayed in the Airbnb, I, so she's like, I don't feel well. I'm just going to stay in here. I was like, so I went to class and people were asking like, where's so and so, where is she? And I was like, not feeling well, you [00:10:00] know, just kind of left it at that. It was just very bizarre and odd.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I felt very uncomfortable. So I'm driving like, I did like another town somewhere. I'm doing GPS trying to find the nearest drugstore. I did get the medicine. I think I got some Robitussin and some Tylenol, you know, just trying to help her, you know, cause she didn't have anyone. And all she had was kind of was me there to depend on.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So, um, she got the results back after the test. Yeah, she's positive. 

Michael Lee: She's 

Techa Smalls-Brown: positive. She's 

Michael Lee: stuck in Ohio. She's 

Techa Smalls-Brown: stuck in Ohio, in this Airbnb, in this PhD program. Don't want to be there. 

Michael Lee: She's still in her house in LA. She's moving abroad. She's mad at you. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: She's pissed. I mean, it was just, it was just a bad situation.

Techa Smalls-Brown: So I called my husband, Mike. I'm Mike. Babe, she has COVID. His first words, get in the car, [00:11:00] come home. I'm like, I can't do that. I can't. Just leave her there. She's an adult. 

Michael Lee: You 

Techa Smalls-Brown: just come, you're like. He was nervous. People were like dying. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, he was scared for you. Lifeboat ethics, you gotta get off. We're done.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Just go, leave her, she'll be fine. You take care of yourself all these years. 

Michael Lee: People are dying, but she'll be fine, leave. You gotta go. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: We were arguing back and forth on the phone. That caused tension in our marriage. Because I was like, no, I'm staying this week. You know, it's over Saturday. I'll get in the car I'll come home and she had planned to drive home with me Oh to fly from she had to go to Georgia.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Okay, so we're close to Georgia Yeah, and so she was like, I'll just drive ride with you back. 

Michael Lee: So you're her ride

Techa Smalls-Brown: Cuz it would be cheaper, you know like sure [00:12:00] to fly Uh, so I was like, cool. That was like the initial plan before the madness broke apart everything and blew up. So I was like, well, I can't drive you in the car for 10 hours with me. Um, because you're sick and I would, I would get it. And I was like, you can't ride in the car.

Techa Smalls-Brown: She can't be in the car with you. Those hours you would get sick. And so he was like mad. He was like. Why don't you just come home and every time we talked he's like get out of there and come home. 

Michael Lee: Okay, 

Techa Smalls-Brown: so I told her What was going on and she was like, I know he's upset and I think they even talked on the phone 

Michael Lee: Oh, really?

Techa Smalls-Brown: Yeah, cuz he was like, let me talk to her. So They did talk and she was like, well, I don't want to cause any tension in your marriage because you know it was just like I just want, I just want this week to end and thank [00:13:00] goodness I didn't contract, I didn't get sick, I didn't even get any symptoms. I think I'd been vaccinated, but you know, take care of myself and just like staying away, you know, like even like the weird thing, like cooking meals, I would cook something.

Techa Smalls-Brown: And like text, say, Hey, your food's outside the door. And then she would open the bedroom door and get the tray and go back in. 

Michael Lee: She had cut like a hole in the door so she could just reach her hand out and take the tray in. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Yeah, put the dishes out and then I would wash the dishes. It was wild. 

Michael Lee: I remember doing stuff like that in the house.

Michael Lee: It 

Techa Smalls-Brown: was wild. But this was a person that wasn't like family, but we were close enough. But then, you know, when that happened. Everything just like fell apart. She stopped talking to me. Okay. Um, I drove home by myself and was thankful. Like, God, I'm out of here. I mean, I, I think, I don't know if I even slept the night I, I [00:14:00] packed up the car.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Like soon as class ended for the week, I started packing and got the car packed and I was like heading out at 5 a. m. 

Michael Lee: I was 

Techa Smalls-Brown: going to get out of Dodge And, and drive back Charleston and come home, you know, and talk to my husband a whole way, you know, like, thank God you're leaving there. So she was able to get a Uber or order an Uber, take her to the airport, fly her to wherever.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I was just like, I'm out, you know, I wish you well. And we just kind of, the friendship ended there. 

Michael Lee: Just period done 

Techa Smalls-Brown: done 

Michael Lee: was that because was that her you I think that 

Techa Smalls-Brown: was her and her Energy was so bad from that. I mean she like I felt she blamed me. She was angry. She was upset I think was a host of emotions I think that she was trying to process and make sense of with all this and then the stress of the move you know all that kind of just came on her and then the [00:15:00] program and The studies, um, she's since dropped out of the program, um, but 

Michael Lee: how do you handle that as you remember it?

Michael Lee: Because as I'm listening to the story, I'll admit that I'm struggling to connect with her point of view. I really 

Techa Smalls-Brown: didn't like give that any space because I just felt like Betrayed because here I am out here trying to help you being as kind as I can be. Um, I mean, I, I didn't, I'm sorry you got sick and got COVID, you know, everybody was getting it.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Um, but for her to like take out. The frustration on me. I was like the closest person to her and they say you heard the people that you're the closest to at the time. And I was like, right there. So I was, I understood that. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: So I was just like, all right. Um, I think I did get one call from her when, when I was on the road driving home [00:16:00] or close to home, I was almost home.

Techa Smalls-Brown: And I guess she had like figured out the hours or how long it took. And I got this, It wasn't even a call. It was a tech, crazy text message. Like, Oh, I guess you're home now. And that was it. And I was like, you know, and I would tell my friends and they were like, who sends a message like that? Like you're on the road, you're driving by yourself.

Techa Smalls-Brown: You're going across country 10 hours. And you get a test measures like, Oh, I guess you're home now. And that's it. 

Michael Lee: Dot, dot, dot, dot 

Techa Smalls-Brown: nothing. And I was like, I didn't know how to, what to make of that. I was just like, she's still mad, angry, whatever. I was like, okay. So I just kind of. I'm like, I'm just going to let it go.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Um, I'm confrontational to a point, but when people show me who they are, I kind of let them go and be and deal with what, cause I know it wasn't me, you know, at the initial reaction was like, why are you mad at me? [00:17:00] But then after I processed and thought about it, I was like, there's a lot of other things that are underneath this.

Techa Smalls-Brown: That I don't know and later it was revealed to me kind of what it was just through my own intuition and just like putting all the pieces together and the friendship that the one and a half year friendship that we had, I kind of saw some things and I was like, you know what? It's for the best to kind of let that be.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I learned some lessons. She taught me some things and we were good friends and getting in, you know, there was, this was good for me because I had like a friend in the program and, um, yeah. You know, um, to kind of bounce ideas off and work on our research and writing together. Um, but it just was like, Whoa, I'd never been in that situation before, but I felt I handled it.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I handled it the best I knew how with what I had and I could salvage the friendship because I felt like, you know [00:18:00] what, if a person is going to be like this toward me, I don't need a friend like this. This is not a friend. This is a transactional kind of relationship I felt after a while. And I was just like, I'm done.

Michael Lee: It sounds like you were, you were really devoted, maybe a little guilty, really helping her out, driving around cooking meals, sleeping on a mask, all sorts of stuff, and then reached a threshold where that devotion and service that you were providing was, was tested and then perhaps abused, and then you, and then you kind of cut ties.

Michael Lee: And so in a general sense, not just about, about this relationship, not necessarily about just this relationship, how do you decide. When a relationship is worth it, 

Techa Smalls-Brown: that's a good question. Um, I think it's, I go off of, um, not what the person has given me. But just [00:19:00] what, how I've like grown through it through the relationship or what, what it's, how it's built me up or, you know, transform my life in whatever way I look at that.

Techa Smalls-Brown: But then after a while, if I got what I needed to get in a sense, like the lessons are learned, I've grown. Um, that was a, a period, you know, I look at, I look at people like. They come into your life, either to add, subtract, multiply, or divide. It's like math. That's how I kind of look at life. So she added for a little bit.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Then, you know, things were multiplied and then the division. And then it was like, I looked at all those mathematical terms. I'm not a math person, but Either add, subtract, multiply, divide, and I went through those stages like, okay, I've learned everything, and it's not worth it. 

Michael Lee: There's kind of like a ledger here where you're keeping track, accounting for the additions, the [00:20:00] subtractions, the multiplications, and the divisions, and then letting some time go by and say, kind of, is this worth it, almost in a mathematical sense.

Michael Lee: But then as a broader rule, it also sounds like you're saying, eventually you can ask yourself a question after some time in the relationship has passed and there's been some water under the bridge and say, do I like me around you? 

Techa Smalls-Brown: And my answer was no. Was 

Michael Lee: no. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Yeah. Um, and not, not really do I like me around you Uhhuh, but do I like you

Techa Smalls-Brown: You know, and I've said, no, dude, that's not me. I'm, I mean, not that I'm without any fault or anything, but no, I really didn't turn that lens on myself. Yeah. I was just like, that's great looking out. I was like, do, are you a, a good a person that I wanna be affiliated with? And do you look at life? Not the same way because, you know, friends don't, we don't look at life the same way, but You know, [00:21:00] just like kindness, courtesy, decency, compassion.

Techa Smalls-Brown: I practice those things. And if you are not showing that. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, 

Techa Smalls-Brown: I, I can't. We're 

Michael Lee: done. 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Yeah. 

Michael Lee: When are you and your husband going to go back to Xenia and Yellow Springs? 

Techa Smalls-Brown: Not going to 

Michael Lee: go get that Airbnb again? 

Techa Smalls-Brown: No, the Airbnb was great. It was like an art gallery. It had a gallery wall with paintings. It was beautiful.

Techa Smalls-Brown: But nah, I mean our program, I'm almost finished with the program. I'll be, uh, defending next year. And so, um, I'm yellow Springs was, was good to me, um, the school and I picked a great college to go to, but learned a lot of lessons, but. I don't foresee going back to Ohio. No time soon. 

Michael Lee: Tisha Smalls Brown, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree.

Techa Smalls-Brown: Thank you. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host [00:22:00] Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.