Confrontational or Non-confrontational?

Joel Caldwell is a accomplished photographer, writer, and filmmaker whose work has appeared in the New York Times, National Geographic, and many other outlets. For the past ten years he has focused on telling conservation and environmental justice stories from around the world. He characterizes himself as non-confrontational. Is he? 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Debates about free speech and censorship are everywhere. These debates can take place at such a high level and include so many variables, like government restrictions, social media ownership, account banning.

Michael Lee: speakers on college campuses, and much more, that it can be hard to know where to even start to engage this debate. So let's just start with a few examples to illustrate the importance of competition, the value of competition, and separating rational arguments from irrational ones. In 2010, the United States, along with many other countries, sent a delegation to FIFA, soccer's international governing body, to make a case that America should host either the 2018 or 2022 World Cups.

Michael Lee: Countries with the best cases might base that case on lots of evidence. Existing stadiums, transportation and [00:01:00] entertainment, and dining for lots of fans, safety protocols, viewership, and potential profits. You get the idea. And then, you might think that the powers that be, FIFA in this case, would deliberate, like a jury, on the evidence, and determine the best country or countries to host a Good World Cup.

Michael Lee: That's not easy, that might be an arduous, deliberative task, a really tough call. Or, to take a different avenue, members of the jury could secretly advertise their votes as being for sale, and set up secret offshore accounts awaiting lots of money, and take all kinds of gifts, like paintings and vacation homes.

Michael Lee: In a world, the World Cup to the highest bidder. When Russia and Qatar were awarded the 2018 and 2022 World Cups, that's exactly what other nations feared happened, and that process was, that was supposed to be public and competitive, was in fact corrupt and biased. And story after story report after report since then has borne out that fear and that US Justice Department even pursued these claims.[00:02:00] 

Michael Lee: Let's take another quick example about the importance of competition and true seeking efforts. A very different example, one of the most famous works of muckraking journalism is the example that we're going to pursue in 1904, Upton Sinclair, working under a fake name, toiled in the dangerous and unsupervised Chicago meatpacking plants.

Michael Lee: When he later published The Jungle, he based his description of the unsanitary industrial conditions in the source of much of America's meat on his stockyard experiences. The resulting public outcry led to many reforms, including the Meat Inspection Act. In a sense, though, Sinclair's fight for public knowledge, for more voices on this issue, remains.

Michael Lee: Several U. S. states have passed so called ag gag laws, agriculture gag laws. And these are laws that criminalize recording or photographing agricultural facilities in the United States. But what ties this issue of football and food together, [00:03:00] ultimately, is competition. In one case, there was a fake competition.

Michael Lee: In another case, there was no competition. The public only got one point of view about safety and cleanliness of food sources. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Joel Caldwell. Joel is an environmental storyteller, including writing, photography, and filmmaking.

Michael Lee: He also co founded The Marsh Project, a grassroots movement to revitalize Salt marsh ecosystems in Charleston, South Carolina. Go tell us an argument story. 

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, so, uh, a tiny setup here. I, I grew up in a very non confrontational family, you know, arguments were just not our strength. But I, I think, you know, growing up I thought it was a strength that we never argued.

Joel Caldwell: Mm. Which I've now realized is probably not a strength. But, uh, so the thing that strangely popped into my head, uh, [00:04:00] I was walking down a very, uh, rainy street in Brooklyn, New York, and I saw in front of me a very affluent appearing man. Light up a cigarette and toss his pack of his empty pack of smokes in the gutter Even though he was just a few feet away from a garbage can And I just felt my skin crawl and kind of before I knew what happened.

Joel Caldwell: I was three strides up I picked up his pack of cigarettes and I had deposited in the The hood of his jacket, which was underneath his umbrella, and it probably had accompanied that with some sort of wild eyed look, because I was very irritated, and then I was sort of gone, but it, it stuck with me for a while, and I realize how foolish of a story this is in the scheme of life, but it, it stuck with me for some reason.

Joel Caldwell: You're 

Michael Lee: like the, the cigarette pack vigilante. What, uh, what did he do? 

Joel Caldwell: I don't know. I was gone. Oh, you just ran off. I would imagine he was startled. I didn't, I didn't run off. I just walked down the street and he was behind me. And he knew [00:05:00] that you had done it though. It wasn't like you. I assumed so, or maybe he got home and he took off his jacket and you found his own cigarettes in his, in his hood.

Joel Caldwell: That's probably it. I thought I was 

Michael Lee: pic picturing you sort of angrily, aggressively depositing the cigarette pack in the hood. 

Joel Caldwell: It was in my probably subdued style. It was angry, but yeah. Got you. It wasn't like horribly confrontational. 

Michael Lee: Sure. And you didn't confront him to his face, make eye contact, say, what did you do?

Michael Lee: Why did you do this? 

Joel Caldwell: Right. It was more, I think he'll find his cigarette pack in his hood and maybe connect the dots. 

Michael Lee: Huh. Have you, is this a pattern? It's, it's confrontational, but it's, uh, there's a little bit of subterfuge, a lot of subterfuge to it. Is this a pattern that you can recognize? Uh, Where you go through some of the conflict.

Joel Caldwell: it's not something that I ever do. Yeah. I'm not somebody that is like a strange vigilante on the street. This is not something that I do. Uh, I think this was a time when I was, uh, I was an, I was angrier than I am now. Certainly. I also think that. you know, [00:06:00] I grew up in a pretty rural place, a pretty impoverished place.

Joel Caldwell: And I think that I probably react more strongly to affluent people doing things that they should know better than maybe the alternative in my own mind. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Talk, talk a bit about the role of class or your identification of class in that moment. Had it been somebody who presented differently, what might've happened?

Michael Lee: I'm 

Joel Caldwell: sure I would have done nothing, you know, I would have probably been irritated by, you know, but I would have justified it some way in my mind, you know, potentially, but yeah, the fact that it was this very You know, I felt like this, this affluent guy who just in my mind, in the fantasy that was running through my mind in that moment, you know, he thought he could just do whatever he wanted and needed to take care, didn't need to take care of anything.

Michael Lee: Yeah. Why do you think this story from six or eight years ago sticks with you so powerfully? 

Joel Caldwell: It's interesting, you know, I think for one, I still am a pretty non confrontational person. So I don't get in a [00:07:00] lot of heated arguments, you know, I have friends that would probably have a better story from this week, you know, but personally, that's just kind of my, my style is not, you know, for better or worse, I don't get into a lot of arguments, you know, I certainly disagree with people, but, you 

Michael Lee: know, 

Joel Caldwell: and it's something that I'm really focused on.

Joel Caldwell: I really, I really want to be better at having hard conversations with people who don't see the same, you know, I just, I think just. As an, as an environmental storyteller, right? I mean, just preaching to the choir is not very helpful. I'm really interested in how we kind of break down boundaries for a lot of reasons.

Joel Caldwell: Right. Uh huh. But, um, but yeah, I think also, I don't know this, this, that story, I think was sort of a period in my life when I was kind of like, okay, this is not, 

Michael Lee: yeah, 

Joel Caldwell: this is not the way to be doing things. 

Michael Lee: As you talk through this, I'm, I'm affected by two things in your storytelling generally, and then your approach to conflict specifically.

Michael Lee: You say that you came from a non confrontational family and that you are now [00:08:00] more non confrontational than you were even in the story you told from six or eight years ago because you're less angry perhaps? Is that right? 

Joel Caldwell: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's two ways, like, you know, so, so I've been, I've now been with my, my wife for probably about 15 years.

Joel Caldwell: We've been married for five or six. Um, and she actually had to teach me how to argue, you know, this in the beginning of our relationship, right? If there was any disagreement, which I think is basically fundamental to any relationship, right? If you're going to be with the same person for a long period of time, you kind of have to, you have to kind of come to head.

Joel Caldwell: At times and then talk through it and that allows you to kind of like continue to grow together, right? Yeah, you know as you as you age as you as you change And so but I would if we got into an argument, you know, I would kind of clam up and just disappear You know not physically disappear but just disappear from the conversation and that made her crazy because she's from a very different You know, she's from a very different background.

Joel Caldwell: And so In some ways, I think I'm much better at, you know, talking about emotions, I'm, I've still, [00:09:00] you know, not probably winning any records, but I'm, I'm able to, uh, or winning any awards, but, but I'm, I'm able to talk about things, I'm able to have disagreements, I'm able to talk through them, but I still, yeah, I don't have a lot of, Yeah.

Joel Caldwell: Conflict or confrontation. 

Michael Lee: Out of curiosity, um, what's your spouse's name? Haley. Haley. What, what did going to Haley's debate camp look like? Oh 

Joel Caldwell: gosh. I mean, 

Michael Lee: brutal. 

Joel Caldwell: Right, I mean, it's like going to the place you'd never want to go to, right? I mean, it was just my idea. And I'm certain my parents Disagreed.

Joel Caldwell: I'm, I'm certain they argued, but they with few exceptions ever did it in front of us kids. I'm one of four, it just was, must've been behind closed doors. Um, because it was really, yeah. So going, you know, in my own relationship, realizing that it doesn't just work like that, you know, was, was, was yeah. Super challenging.

Michael Lee: Yeah. And debate camp aside, still characterize yourself as relatively non confrontational, which is an extension of. What you say is an old family [00:10:00] pattern, and yet you are engaged in work related to public advocacy, storytelling, photography, filmmaking, presumably making arguments in favor of environmental preservation.

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think I try to do that through kind of more empathetic storytelling, right? So telling story, I love telling stories, you know, through people that I think of as, you know, kind of stereotype busters, right? Somebody that you see. You know, who knows? It could have been that, uh, that man that I put the cigarette in his, in his hood, you know, was having a bad day, but he was actually like a really beautiful person and I just made this snap judgment that was totally inaccurate, you know, but 

Michael Lee: yeah, 

Joel Caldwell: so I think that's kind of how I approach storytelling and trying to like cross those boundaries.

Michael Lee: In your hopes in, in the marsh project, which you run, revitalizes salt marsh ecosystems and your larger kind of environmental consciousness work as you're picking these representative anecdotes or examples of people who are stereotype busters. As you say, [00:11:00] what do you, you're not really explicitly making an argument about that.

Michael Lee: You're saying, not saying, well, here's Michael Lee and he busts these stereotypes and therefore you should change your belief or get involved in this. You're essentially telling the story. And then what is the hope that the audience will do with that story? 

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, I guess you're generally trying to show people that people can identify with, right.

Joel Caldwell: So that people can be invited into the conversation, you know, so whatever that conversation might be. So my, since lots of times it's environmentally. Uh, you know, it's about environmental things, you know, that some segments of the population just don't feel invited into that conversation. So if you can, if you can, if you can actually find someone that kind of, um, can represent that, that crowd or that group, I think that that enlarges the circle and gets more buy in.

Michael Lee: Yeah. Is there, is there, are there areas of activism generally or environmental activism specifically? That you feel like lend themselves best to this kind of [00:12:00] storytelling and storytelling as invitation to participate, or are there some that lend themselves more to an antagonistic, confrontational style?

Joel Caldwell: For sure, yeah, and this may not be any surprise, but I lend away from the confrontational, you know, I'm I'm not the guy that ties myself into a tree so that it doesn't get cut down, although I have a lot of respect for those people and I care for those trees, right? I mean, I'm glad there's people out there that are doing more like the policing, right?

Joel Caldwell: But, but what we try to do with the Marsh Project and what I do with my own work is, is, is certainly much more about the things that individuals can do. That's kind of really been the focus, right? Of, Can you change what you've planted in your yard? Can you change how you talk to your neighbor? Can you change how you think about, you know, if you just pump the water out into your street and it goes into the storm gutter and out into the marsh, you know, uh, you know, like there's like more like, you know, I, I think that, um, uh, when, when we talk about things that we can do versus the things that we [00:13:00] can't do, you know, that you, you, there's more of an opportunity to engage more people.

Michael Lee: Yeah, and implicit in that is a kind of confrontation, which is you're not doing this thing. And perhaps you should, but in your storytelling, your art, your approach to this is more of a subtle nudge. Yeah. In the direction of a behavioral change rather than shame or, right. Um, yeah, we're making the world worse and why don't you get your head out of, you know, what, and so forth.

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, exactly. We try to be fun. We try to be playful. We try to show the fact that like living a more connected life to your, to your environment, to your ecosystem is, is, is a better life, you know, it's a more joyful life, it's not. The, the, the typical story, which in my opinion has been kind of more doom and gloom.

Joel Caldwell: If we don't do this, we're going to die. We don't do this. You're a terrible person, et cetera. You know, it's more about what we're missing out on and, and 

Michael Lee: what we have to do so much of obviously environmental activism and lots of kinds of activism, not, but we're on the [00:14:00] environment. So let's stay there.

Michael Lee: Lots of environmental activism. Has a reputation and at least they get the most media coverage, right? Is because it creates these kinds of image events that really can sell. It can be on the front page of a newspaper. If we take down a whaling vessel or something along those lines, that's the most extreme antagonistic examples, the folks who are tying themselves to trees and whatnot, but also there is a, a kind of really aggressive argument style in some.

Michael Lee: environmental activist quarters. And I'm thinking specifically about the most famous case being a film entirely dedicated to rebuttal, which is Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth, in which he stood forward and the film became wildly successful. And the entire film is a case for science based existence of warming and then a rebuttal to the specious arguments that come back.

Michael Lee: And it didn't necessarily move the needle that much. So What do you think is going on with the limits of [00:15:00] this kind of activism? 

Joel Caldwell: I mean, that's, it might be out of my purview to, to, to comment on that. And, and, I mean, I think that the awareness that Al Gore created with that film is massive and was totally necessary.

Joel Caldwell: And so I, I would argue that it did move the needle, maybe, you know. imperceptibly or maybe there's a groundswell, right? That is unfortunately taking decades, but you know, I think it was really powerful and really important. Um, but yeah, I mean, I guess when it comes to things like this, I don't ever want to be critical of people that dedicate their lives to this.

Joel Caldwell: I don't, I'm not a proponent of angry activism, you know, but again, that's maybe me coming from some privilege or something, you know, I'm just, I'm not that angry of a person, you know, but. But I think we kind of have to hit it from all sides, you know, so we'll try our way. We, it'd be good if everybody else tries their way as well, you know, so, um, that might've been a bit of a dodge, but.

Joel Caldwell: Oh, you're 

Michael Lee: great. Do, do you think that stories, I'm trying to think about the arguments you're [00:16:00] implicitly making. So do the stories that you try to tell, whether it's through photographs, films, writing, et cetera, Is the argument come first? In other words, you have a conclusion that you would like the audience to accept, and then you find an example that proves that, or is it a story that you just find powerful and you're not really sure exactly what the ends to which it could be used for are, but it's a story that needs to be told.

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, I think there's some of both, you know, absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of my stuff is. 

Michael Lee: And give an example if you could. 

Joel Caldwell: Yeah, if I come across a great story, um, that also, you know, has great purpose, then it's a total winner, right? So an example would be actually today, uh, I, um, directed a film for Patagonia and it went live this morning and it was about, it's a bit of a niche, but hopefully it'll be less so if people watch the film.

Joel Caldwell: Sure. It's the first people in the United States. Or in North America, I should [00:17:00] say, to grow their own hemp, process it into usable fiber, and use it in the construction of homes is, um, the Lower Sioux Indian community on the plains of Minnesota. And they used to have 29 million acres that they followed the buffalo on and now they live on three square miles and they have a casino and about Nothing else.

Joel Caldwell: They were subjected to the largest mass execution in U. S. history. The day after the emancipation, emancipation proclamation was signed, 38 Dakota warriors were hung, signed by Abraham Lincoln. This is in Mankato. Exactly. Wow. Exactly. Nice. Nicely done. I spent some time in Minnesota. Wow. Yeah. And so, so it's a, it's an incredible power.

Joel Caldwell: It's an incredibly powerful story for lots of reasons, in my opinion, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a powerful story for one, because it talks about. You know, the adoption of plant based building materials and how we can make homes that are carbon banks, as opposed to carbon emitters. Yeah. It's a powerful story from a social context, you know, it's, it's a powerful story [00:18:00] to tell this indigenous led, you know, movement, um, kind of the resumption of, of, of, um, protecting the earth, even, even though they've been disenfranchised as much as anybody on this continent, you know?

Joel Caldwell: So, so that's an example of, it's just a incredible story that would be worth telling. Kind of no matter what, but it all comes together really nicely. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and it's, it's an amazing story and I'm glad you gave that example. And it also makes me think about our kind of larger discussion we've been having in this conversation about what confrontation means and what non confrontation means.

Michael Lee: Because that story, if it's given real amplification and told very well, could be, assuming it's modeled or serves as an inspiration for lots of groups of people, could be threatening to incredibly powerful interests in this country. And so it is a kind of confrontation and not just a low key confrontation between you and I, or you in a small community in Minnesota or somewhere, but you an incredibly powerful interest.[00:19:00] 

Michael Lee: And so it makes me want to come back to the question of. Like you characterize yourself as non confrontational to tell this story and it doesn't seem to match up. 

Joel Caldwell: I think I'm not confrontational in the person, like person to person context, right? Like I don't want to sit at Thanksgiving and, and, and like have an angry, I mean, or even maybe not angry.

Joel Caldwell: And I wish I was less, cause maybe it's kind of chicken shit of me. I'm not sure, but you know, I, I don't really want to sit across from my cousin, you know, who's an ardent supporter of a candidate that I'm not and have. You know, and kind of like the few hours that I'm going to see this person this year, you know, have a conversation that, you know, you know, you understand what I'm saying, you know, or a conversation that I feel like we're not going to get anywhere.

Joel Caldwell: Yeah. Not to be, uh, you know, not to think that's not possible, but, you know, so I guess I, maybe I pick my battles and it's more, but, but yeah, I guess all of my work. It would be confrontational from that lens. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, from that lens. I mean, that is kind of the classic Thanksgiving example. We actually had a really powerful episode on this show about a [00:20:00] Thanksgiving argument that really hurt a family.

Michael Lee: Um, but that is kind of the classic paradigmatic example of folks thinking about confrontation is I'm locked at Thanksgiving dinner with my uncle who's in QAnon, and I just can't get out of it. And we're just screaming at each other. And that's kind of that, right? But. In another sense, you've dedicated much of your professional life to, to a kind of confrontation.

Michael Lee: And of course, you've gone to Haley's debate camp. And so you're now, you're now well equipped to have more confrontational conversations as opposed to being antagonistic or mean. Right. 

Joel Caldwell: Right. I think that's true. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. Okay. So the high level, then you grow up in a non confrontational family. You have more healthy confrontations as a result of your loving spouse.

Michael Lee: You've dedicated your life to what strikes me as, I mean, they could be more aggressive. You could be chaining yourself to stuff and getting arrested and all that sort of stuff. But you've dedicated your professional life to picking on some folks who [00:21:00] are incredibly powerful and telling stories that might threaten their interests.

Michael Lee: And so let's come back to the first statement. Do you see yourself as confrontational, non confrontational? I see myself as very confrontational. Hahaha 

Joel Caldwell: Well said, you really uh, changed my whole, the whole way I think about myself. 

Michael Lee: Hahaha Well that's the point of this show. Joel Caldwell, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com