The Abortion Debate

Zara Smith was pro-choice. Her boyfriend wasn't sure what his position on abortion was. Zara chose to end their relationship. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. According to a recent Pew Center poll, Americans are largely skeptical of the news media. According to another recent poll, Americans are skeptical that health care costs will decrease anytime soon.

Michael Lee: But what is this skepticism that many Americans are expressing, and what is it based on? As Lombrozo has written, Skepticism is supposed to reflect a willingness to question and doubt, a key characteristic of scientific thinking. Skepticism encourages us to look at the evidence critically and allows for the possibility that we're wrong.

Michael Lee: End quote. That is, maintaining a healthy skepticism, what I would call a relentless interest in verification, is essential as we try to look for the qualities that separate rational arguments and [00:01:00] conclusions. from those that aren't rational. Skepticism is an exhaustive search for better explanations, for better evidence.

Michael Lee: At its best, skepticism indicates a willingness to question even answers that seem obvious. A faith, and I use this word deliberately, a faith that additional information can strengthen our conclusions, and a desire to revisit the conclusions we have already drawn. A skepticism that lacks a reason to be skeptical, one that lacks humility, a knee jerk, doubtful response to claims or sources you don't like, a never ending movement of the goalpost of proof, a suspicious default into unpersuadability.

Michael Lee: These replicate the very problem of certainty and arrogance that rational skepticism was created to solve. That is, healthy skepticism surrenders to the possibility of plausible belief. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston.[00:02:00] 

Michael Lee: Today's guest on When We Disagree is Zara Smith. Zahra is a student from Fairfield, Connecticut, who also runs the non profit Flowering Progress, which is dedicated to using art to end stigmas around mental health. Zahra, tell us an argument story. 

Zara Smith: Hi everyone, thanks for having me today. Um, my first story, or my only story that I'm going to tell today, is about, um, a time where I was dating this boy, which is a very normal teenage girl thing to do, and I started talking to him about things that I was passionate about, one of those things being abortion rights, and he told me that he had no stance.

Zara Smith: And that's where I disagreed with him. Today, I want to talk a little bit about how we can disagree when someone doesn't have an opinion, because having no opinion to me means that you have an opinion, 

Michael Lee: say more about that. So let's set up the context. You are in a [00:03:00] relationship and it gets to politics.

Michael Lee: Inevitably it gets to a thorny issue, like abortion. Inevitably. Yeah. You say your opinion, he says, 

Zara Smith: he says, I don't have an opinion. 

Michael Lee: Just, that's it. Straight up. Just like, 

Zara Smith: just, I don't have an opinion on that. 

Michael Lee: I got nothing on that. 

Zara Smith: I got nothing on that. That's basically what he said. And this is at the time when Roe v.

Zara Smith: Wade was just overturned. So I was very passionate about my rights and what that meant for my abilities. Um, I mean, I was young at this point, still am, but. Just to be clear, what 

Michael Lee: is your position? 

Zara Smith: I am very pro choice. Okay. Um, I think that it's A woman's right to decide what she wants to do with her body.

Zara Smith: And I also think it's very important to emphasize that being pro choice doesn't mean being pro abortion. 

Michael Lee: Right. 

Zara Smith: So. 

Michael Lee: And in his response in this moment, you didn't feel like he was just kind of ducking the issue. He genuinely was like, I don't know. 

Zara Smith: Yeah. I think he genuinely didn't have an answer. [00:04:00] He had never thought about it.

Zara Smith: He had, it never had crossed his mind. The fact that someone he loved or someone that he cared about. Um, would have to face this and I think that that's kind of what unsettled me a little bit and that's when I got a little bit upset because I felt as though, um, an issue that affects so many women, um, and an issue that affects a woman's right to her own body should be thought about and talked about.

Michael Lee: Was there, was this a species of arguments that you had with him where you would have an opinion? And he wouldn't? And that was frustrating? Or was this a kind of one time only deal? 

Zara Smith: It was kind of a one time only deal. Um, I just remember being in, um, in Martha's Vineyard, actually. And, um, Roe v. Wade was overturned, and it was like kind of the day that it was really presented.

Zara Smith: Um, and I just remember being [00:05:00] so upset and worried and scared for me and also for my fellow females and, um, and people who need an abortion. Um, and, um, I remember bringing my concern to him and him just having no sense of That meant to me and what that meant to women across the country. And it just made me feel as though I was unseen in a way.

Michael Lee: You felt unseen in that moment. You felt part of an enormous group of people, half the population who you felt like he was not seeing. 

Zara Smith: Yeah. And 

Michael Lee: what did he say? 

Zara Smith: He, um, just basically was like, I don't understand why I need to have an opinion on this. I'm not a woman. And I think the reason why that upsets me so much is because, um, of the double standard that would have happened.

Zara Smith: I think that if, if men were to have some, like, if it was mandatory for men to have [00:06:00] asectomies before they wanted to have children, then it would be a much different issue and women would be educated on that issue and care about that issue. So I think it's hard to see that he wasn't. Um, worried about it for me, or that's a different argument 

Michael Lee: too, right?

Michael Lee: If he says, I just don't have an opinion about this issue because I'm 17, that's one thing. And if he says, I just don't have an opinion about this issue because I feel morally conflicted about both sides. And I think both sides have decent arguments and I'm just kind of confused and shrug emoji throw my hands up.

Zara Smith: Yeah, I think it's another thing. Yeah, I think it started as him not having an opinion and then me talking about my stance and giving him facts and sending him articles and it was a long Oh, this is a process. Yeah. Yeah. And um, it got to the point where he was like, I see both sides. I don't really understand why I need to have an opinion on this.

Michael Lee: How long is this process? 

Zara Smith: Two weeks. Okay. And then I was like, he came to the conclusion that he was pro life. Oh. And that, um, [00:07:00] if something were to have, have happened, then he wouldn't support me having an abortion. 

Michael Lee: So he comes into this saying, this is irrelevant to my life. I don't have an opinion. You go through a two week persuasion process and he ends up with exactly the opposite of your position.

Zara Smith: Yep, exactly. 

Michael Lee: What do you think happened there? 

Zara Smith: I think he just thought more about, um, how it would affect him. He, I really don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. I think it's hard to understand where someone's coming from, and I try to see it from his perspective as well. But, 

um, 

Zara Smith: it's honestly hard for me to understand when people don't support, um, women and making the choice about their own body.

Zara Smith: Um, and I think especially in today's political scheme, that's been something that's been weighing heavy on me. 

Michael Lee: What do you make of pro life women? 

Zara Smith: Um, you know, I've never really thought about that. And I think I have thought about it, [00:08:00] but in passing, because it's such a hard topic to think about. Yeah. I think, um, women who are pro life women should think further and maybe have thought further about.

Zara Smith: Other women's decisions, and if they weren't in the same position that they are in, I don't know if it's religious, um, Affiliation that creates their stance, or if it's just like a moral feeling, um, But I think it just comes down to the thought of, do you want your own autonomy over your own body, and for women who are in situations, especially low income women who don't have access to contraception or who are struggling with, um, with having multiple children and not being able to provide for another one.

Zara Smith: What does that look like? 

Michael Lee: What was your reaction when he told you that he had decided he was pro life after this two week persuasion process? 

Zara Smith: I said, I'm not talking [00:09:00] to you anymore. 

Michael Lee: Oh, that was that? 

Zara Smith: Yeah, that was it. That 

Michael Lee: was the end of the relationship then and 

Zara Smith: there? Yep. Yep. I was worried. I said like I was, I saw a future with him.

Zara Smith: I saw, well I didn't really, but I saw, I wanted to see a future with him. Yes, aspirational. Yeah, I've always been a hopeless romantic, but I've also been very strict in what I believe. 

Okay. 

Zara Smith: And, um, I knew that if I had pursued that relationship even further, Then I wouldn't have been sticking to what I've always wanted for myself and that's to stick up for what I believe.

Michael Lee: You would feel inauthentic in that relationship. 

Zara Smith: And I also feel like I'd be almost doing a disservice to other women. 

Michael Lee: Let me ask you a question. I have kind of a broader species of questions about having opinions and also making sure that your opinions are shared by your friends and romantic partners or husbands, wives, etc.

Michael Lee: Let's talk about the relationship part first. Are there a group of issues that are controversial that you [00:10:00] would feel comfortable being in a relationship with somebody assuming you had differences on those issues. In other words, where does the threshold between things we can agree to disagree about and things we can't agree to disagree about, where is that line?

Zara Smith: I think it's honestly very situational. I think it's situational in the way that I interact with that person. I think with this other boyfriend, or this pro life boyfriend, I guess you could call him, I don't know. 

Michael Lee: I guess you could. 

Zara Smith: I guess you could call him that. It 

Michael Lee: sounds like 

Zara Smith: that. Um. I think the issue with that was that he didn't make me feel seen or understood.

Zara Smith: If he had almost accepted what I felt and accepted why I believed what I believed, then maybe we would have had a different conversation and a different type of relationship. But I think that it almost echoes the way that he was with me in other aspects. So kind of going back to your question, I think that it really just depends on the respect that you [00:11:00] receive through what you believe.

Michael Lee: On this issue though, one of the things I talk to folks about a lot in this role both on the show and then directing the organization called the Civility Initiative that I run is about sometimes seeing people as greater than the sum of their opinions and that all of us have a ridiculous amount of opinions, some of which we don't have much evidence for, some of which we haven't thought much about.

Michael Lee: But we're also moral people, or nice to our dogs, or, and bad drivers, and half decent baseball card collectors, and we're all these groups of, of kind of strange things. But on some issues, Like abortion and many other issues for many people, there must be consistency between you and I for us to have a kind of relationship.

Michael Lee: So I'm curious about how we have collectively decided that there must be symmetry on certain issues for us to maintain closeness. 

Zara Smith: [00:12:00] Yeah, yeah. I think, um, I think it really just, I like to say that it comes down to the type of relationship that you're pursuing. Okay. I think when you think about a future with someone versus a friend versus someone that you're sharing your life with, you know, I think that it's different.

Zara Smith: Um, I think that we need to be understanding and draw that moral line of where we see morality. And I think that My personal opinion is that abortion is something that is a choice and it should be morally accepted and morally right that we have a choice about our own bodies. And so I think when politics come into play and differences opinions in politics, then it's okay and it's It's honestly great to have differences in that, but when morality comes into play and how we treat people and how we perceive people and the way that, um, [00:13:00] we kind of interact with the, um, with the differences, I think that's where we, we need to draw the line.

Michael Lee: Let's talk also about the necessity of having an opinion on questions of morality, on treating people well, on justice. Do you have, you don't have to share it, but just out of curiosity, do you have a strong opinion about the war in the Ukraine? 

Zara Smith: No. And I think that it's because of my own life experience.

Okay. Um, 

Zara Smith: I want to be more educated, I want to learn more, but I also am not in a position I feel like where I can have Well, I can have a strong opinion, but where I can voice that strong opinion because I'm not living that. 

Michael Lee: Right. It feels irrelevant to your life experience or it's something you just haven't looked into very much for whatever reason.

Michael Lee: I 

Zara Smith: think it's both. And I also think that it's like the inability for me to, it's [00:14:00] just not something that resonates directly with me because I'm not living that situation. And so I want to. Right. It's something that's been on my list in order to research and to create an opinion on and so I see where my.

Zara Smith: Maybe my, um, Double standard is in terms of like how I treated that boyfriend and said like well You don't have an opinion. So that means that you're not like right for me, you know 

Michael Lee: Yeah, I was sort of getting at you can imagine somebody saying well the war in Ukraine or Israel Gaza The civil war in the Sudan and many other controversies they get a lot less press attention.

Michael Lee: These are all moral issues These concern humanity how we treat one another these are massive losses of life 

Zara Smith: Yeah. 

Michael Lee: Huge injustices happening before our very eyes and what privilege and luxury it is of yours to say. Totally. Well, I just don't know. 

Zara Smith: Yeah, yeah. I think it's also different [00:15:00] because I don't want to take a stance where.

Zara Smith: I'm not supported in, um, in what I, what I think, you know, like ever since I was little, and it's just the way that I've been raised as well. Um, I've been told that I'm a strong woman, that I need to be strong and that there's different ways to show that. And, um, I've always been just passionate about women's rights and the way that women are perceived in this country and in all countries.

Zara Smith: And I think that like people have different paths to what Lights their fire, especially in the terms of social justice. And for me, that's like racial equality and women's rights. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and on those issues those are kind of telltale issues for you, hallmark issues where relationships need at least to have some symmetry on the core things that guide you.

Zara Smith: Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael Lee: Guiding lights as you say. 

Zara Smith: And I also think that I made a mistake too in the way that I like [00:16:00] When about that disagreement, I think that growing up and being older now, like this was a few years ago. So being older now and understanding more where people are coming from and doing more research from both sides and seeing um, different stories from each perspective has made me see and made me feel more like we are all just human and we need to respect each other's humanity and also Engage with it.

Zara Smith: Um, and part of being human is disagreeing 

Michael Lee: And so, as you sort this out, because it is a little bit complicated as you talk it through, on the one hand, you feel, um, authentic in having stood up for yourself, and also engaged in a kind of persuasive effort to get him to see your point of view and the justice of your point of view.

Michael Lee: And on the other hand, you think maybe, maybe you got a few things wrong during this process. How do you, what's the lasting lesson here for you about this memory? 

Zara Smith: I think the [00:17:00] lasting lesson for me is to go with what your head and your heart desire and what they believe in. I think that I've always led with my heart and I'm learning now how to lead with my heart and my head.

Zara Smith: And my heart definitely took over in that situation. My emotions got the best of me in terms of how I approached it. Um, and I wish that I had used my head a little bit more in terms of seeing his perspective, seeing where he was coming from. And so now going forward, I hope to take that experience and show me that there are different sides to every story.

Zara Smith: We're all human. We're all going to disagree. We're all going to have situations. And it's just what matters to me and what, and everyone has those. What matters to me, things, you know? So. 

Michael Lee: Engage this one hypothetical as we close. Sure, sure. What would have happened to the relationship if you had used your head and your heart in this controversy over abortion?

Michael Lee: It definitely 

Zara Smith: would have failed. It was doomed from the start, let's be real. But, um, I use my. My knowledge in that, in [00:18:00] my current relationship, and I know that like, when we disagree, it's a, it's a hard heart and a head moment, and using both of those things to guide you to a solution, guide you to a conclusion almost.

Zara Smith: Is what's more important. 

Michael Lee: Zara Smith, thank you so much for coming on When We Disagree. 

Zara Smith: Thank you, I appreciate you.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.