Politics as Usual

Mia McLeod is a prominent former state senator in South Carolina. During her time in office, Mia wanted to make sure that political appointees were qualified for their jobs. One of Mia's colleagues became furious that she was disrupting the normal political process. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments. How we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Think of a group of people, maybe even just one person, whose political beliefs are the opposite of yours. Maybe you're opposed on everything. The president, taxes, foreign policy, even what shows to watch.

Michael Lee: Then ask yourself this deceptively simple question. Why do they believe what they believe? What motivates them? There are only a few possible answers to this question. They are good people with different opinions. They are good people, but they're misinformed. They are ignorant, fearful, or confused. All the way to answers like this one.

Michael Lee: They are evil and they wake up in the morning and they drink a tall glass of evil and become more evil as a result. For those that pick this last option to describe their political opponents, [00:01:00] their opinion of themselves is often the polar opposite. Whereas their opponents are motivated by hate. They, these believers, are motivated by love.

Michael Lee: Researchers who study polarization call this discrepancy, quote, motive attribution asymmetry. It's a mouthful, but it means what motives do we ascribe to people who disagree with us and what motives do we assign to ourselves and how far apart are those assessments? How far apart are those good and evil motives?

Michael Lee: The farther apart they are. The harder societies have and living together peacefully. Researchers started using this phrase motive attribution asymmetry around 2014, 10 years ago, different give or take, and two of the countries they then found as having the greatest motive attribution asymmetry were Israel.

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. [00:02:00] Our guest today on When We Disagree is Mia McLeod. She's a South Carolina State Senator and has been so for the past eight years. She served six years in the South Carolina House of Representatives as well.

Michael Lee: She recently announced that she is no longer going to seek re election. She can trace her South Carolina family lineage back eight generations. She's the proud mom of two adult sons and the proud daughter of two amazing parents. Mia, tell us an argument story. 

Mia McLeod: So my argument story, uh, happened in June of 2022.

Mia McLeod: I, as you said, currently serve in the South Carolina Senate and in the general assembly, we appoint. or elect judges. We appoint magistrates, we elect judges across South Carolina. Um, people may not realize that we are in the minority of states that [00:03:00] elects and appoints judges in that way. Um, and so I received some paperwork one evening as I was sitting in my office at my desk and it was an application for a judicial position that was open in the county that I represent.

Mia McLeod: And, um, I looked, I reviewed the information that was sent to me. And I realized that I did have some knowledge of the person who was applying or who was being recommended for the judicial position. I did a little more research and discovered that This person was not, did not meet the criteria for, for me, [00:04:00] uh, serve in that position because of her lack of experience and qualifications.

Mia McLeod: And so I contacted the, the, uh, senator who was, who sent me the paperwork and asked me to sign. and told him that I wouldn't be able or willing to do that and that he could still move her application forward. Because, uh, when I did a little more research, I also talked with our staff and they said that her recommendation could move forward to the governor and she could be appointed to the judicial seat with as long as there was only one.

Mia McLeod: Senator who, um, who was not willing to sign. So it wouldn't have prevented her from serving as a judge. I just wasn't comfortable endorsing it or putting my name [00:05:00] on it. 

Michael Lee: So just to be clear, her path toward a judgeship was not impeded necessarily by you resisting or giving, you weren't going to give her your endorsement, but she could still become a judge.

Absolutely. The conflict 

Michael Lee: is about just this endorsement, but the endorsement may or may not have had any kind of material outcome. 

Right. So the, the, um, the issue was. 

Mia McLeod: that this applicant or the person who was being recommended by my colleague in the senate was the wife or is the wife of another legislative colleague 

Michael Lee: here we go 

Mia McLeod: yes and so i have in the past Even when I served in the House, introduce legislation that would stop, that would prevent us from appointing [00:06:00] and electing family members, um, I think it does the general public a disservice, uh, to do that because it's uh, Our family members and, you know, people who are close to us have a built in advantage over someone who is likely just as qualified, if not more qualified.

Mia McLeod: And, um, you know, I just think that nepotism needs to, uh, needs to stop. And so, um, the, the, my colleague who recommended and was moving. This application forward reached out to me to let me know that, uh, the applicant's husband was not happy about my refusal to sign her application and that he would be reaching out to me and he did.

Mia McLeod: And I reached back. I missed his call. Initially, I reached back out to him and [00:07:00] thought that we would be able to have a candid conversation, 

but 

Mia McLeod: it's and a civil conversation. That was not the case. And so I shared with him exactly what I've shared with you that I'm not comfortable signing off on your wife's judicial appointment.

Mia McLeod: However, staff has advised me that her application can still be, you know, can still move forward. And I am not Um, going to stop it if, if my colleague wants to push her application forward, that is his prerogative 

as, 

Mia McLeod: as a, you know, as a member of the South Carolina Senate. And I'm just telling you what I'm unwilling to do as a, as a, as in terms of being a part of that process.

Michael Lee: I'm struggling to figure out sitting here trying to put myself in your shoes on that call [00:08:00] because it's, it's difficult. It's one of these issues, nepotism, that's controversial, but you seldom hear somebody in public say, you know, I think nepotism is really good and we should do more of it. Right. And so it's, I'm struggling to figure out what the arguments for.

Michael Lee: The appointment of a person who's unqualified simply because of a personal relationship. And so basically, what was the argument about? Or was it just, I'm disappointed in you, you owe me this or something like that? 

Mia McLeod: Well, the, the argument was really, it really came down to, you know, when I make decisions like that, and quite frankly, it's, it's been, Often, a lot more often than it should have been.

Mia McLeod: But I always look at myself first and, you know, try to think about my, why, you know, why am I doing this? [00:09:00] Um, is it, is it reasonable? Is it, um, is it purposeful? Does it, does it serve a purpose? Um, that's significant to me. Is it justifiable? Can I defend it? Um, is it negotiable? You know, am I willing to kind of give or take or compromise on it?

Mia McLeod: And the answers to those questions. Um, if, you know, once I, once I go through that process, I'm firm and fixed. Um, I'm not willing to bend when it comes to my principles. And I explained that to him. In the same tone and, um, you know, the same basic, uh, in the same way that I'm explaining it right now and he became enraged on the phone.

Mia McLeod: I mean, [00:10:00] cursing at me and, um, you know, threatening. Threatening me and saying that, you know, I don't get to decide who's, who's qualified because there is a test that these, and it's just a screening test. that tells, um, the, um, those, whether the candidate, you know, is able to even function in that capacity.

Mia McLeod: And she passed the test and that's great. But these judges, particularly here in South Carolina, um, um, deal with a myriad of really serious issues, um, including domestic violence, um, harassment, landlord tenant issues. I mean, they, they [00:11:00] deal with life altering and sometimes life threatening issues. And, you know, as someone who started the, uh, Violence Against Women program here in South Carolina under, uh, Attorney General Charlie Condon at that time, when I first graduated law school, I am acutely aware of the issues, particularly as it relates to domestic violence.

Mia McLeod: These judges have to be, I can't afford to appoint someone who simply passes a screening test. 

Michael Lee: This is one of these issues around which it also seems like there's not a lot of good arguments on the other side. In other words, you seldom hear people say, you know what we need, or less qualified judges. 

So 

Michael Lee: again, the conflict seems like a conflict between your principles and what this person assumed to be was [00:12:00] deserved or perhaps standard practice.

Michael Lee: And so I wanted to follow up on that. And Is, was his outrage about the perception that you were stepping out of line and violating a kind of standard operating procedure in which nepotism is normal and expected part of politics in South Carolina or elsewhere? 

Mia McLeod: Yes, I think so. I think because we were As I saw it, you know, on friendly terms prior to this.

Mia McLeod: And he kept asking why I was doing this as if I was, you know, as if I were doing something intentionally to hurt him or his wife, and that couldn't have been further from the truth. It wasn't about them for me. It was about the principal. It was about, you know, whether she could, in fact, what I believed she was To [00:13:00] step into that role in a, in a way that would benefit my constituents, um, and, and truly serve my constituents.

Mia McLeod: And I just did not see that there was no, you know, when I asked myself those questions, is it reasonable? Absolutely. This is my responsibility. I'm ultimately responsible for every. Judge, I appoint, um, for every boat that I, you know, that I'm able to, um, have as it relates to other judges, uh, in the larger, um, general assembly, was it per, was it purposeful?

Mia McLeod: Absolutely. Um, as I said, these, these issues are. life changing, life altering, life threatening for so many of my constituents. And we live in a state, um, South Carolina, we live in a state where, you know, [00:14:00] women, we've been number one in the nation. For women, when it comes to women who are murdered by men in the state.

Mia McLeod: And so our judges are often judges and law enforcement are often the, you know, those two, um, Disciplines are often the game changers in that regard for women and girls in our state. And, you know, that's not something that I can take lightly and I don't. And so it was justifiable. 

Yeah. 

Mia McLeod: It was, uh, not negotiable.

Mia McLeod: I had already done, you know, when I appoint anyone, I'm going to do the research and I'm going to look into, you know, this person's background and I didn't find anything. You know, that was negative. I just [00:15:00] saw someone who was inexperienced and this would have been her first real job, uh, out of, out of college.

Mia McLeod: And I, I just thought, wow, you know, that 

Michael Lee: well, did she end up becoming a judge? 

Mia McLeod: I'm sorry. Did 

Michael Lee: she end up becoming a judge? 

Mia McLeod: No. And the reason she didn't end up becoming a judge is because the senator who initially, uh, forwarded her application to me to sign off on later rescinded her application. And so I don't know the why behind that.

Mia McLeod: All I know is what, you know, I shared with him what I'm sharing with you. And because of that, I was the villain. I became the villain because, you know, I went and signed my, uh, signed my name, um, on her application. And so her husband, my legislative colleague. Started coming for me, and [00:16:00] it became this whole, you know, how dare you not put, you know, um, support my wife's effort to become a judge, uh, in this county, and I'm going to make you pay, and that was the position, uh, that he took.

Michael Lee: What, in what ways could he, other than just being mean or, or uncivil, in what ways could that retribution have political or professional consequences? 

Mia McLeod: Well, so initially, you know, I continue to do what I do and that is support my, um, my constituents in every way that I can. And he sent me messages through other colleagues that, you know, my efforts to Uh, get certain bills through or to get, uh, to, to [00:17:00] protect some of my other judges, uh, judicial appointments that he was going to make things really difficult for me.

Mia McLeod: And then in 2021. I actually announced that I was running for governor of South Carolina, not knowing at the time that I would be the first black woman to ever announce a run for governor in the state of South Carolina. And I wasn't able to officially file until 2022. And so during that time, you know, he sent me messages, Oh, you're running for governor now.

Mia McLeod: Um, You know, um, maybe, maybe you want to change your mind about, um, your decision not to, uh, support my wife and, and her appointment. Now, he never said these things to me after the fact he was irate on the phone. Like I could not [00:18:00] get a word in. I had to call his name several times just to get him to, you know, calm down and hear me.

Mia McLeod: Um, but he sent messages through colleagues and, you know, I let all of that go because it really, you know, it didn't, it didn't matter. And, and so when I ran though in 2022, when I filed and it was official, he decided that his last ditch effort to, um, you know, to pay me back 

would 

Mia McLeod: be to have hold a press conference, which he did on the second floor of the state house and announce publicly that he was going to endorse my opponent.

Mia McLeod: Um, that too, didn't bother me because I expected it. What I didn't expect though, was that he would try to, you know, drag My name and stand, you [00:19:00] know, in this, at his press conference and speak lies and, and all kinds of misinformation about who I am and about, you know, my work and the legislature. So I felt the need to respond to that.

Mia McLeod: And I did, uh, on Twitter. I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I responded. Um, when I saw it, uh, several people sent me clips of the press conference. And when I saw that, I was actually, uh, being driven from one speaking engagement. To a whole, whole different part of the state to speak at another, um, campaign event.

Mia McLeod: And so I responded and this went on for a few minutes. We went back and forth on Twitter and, um, you know, and then once I said what I needed to say, which was the real reason that he was. [00:20:00] Endorsing my opponent, which I don't think he ever got around to the actual endorsement. He, he just, you know, use that to slam You know, vilify me because of, of that.

Mia McLeod: Um, so, you know, these are the things that, that most of us who are in politics and are in it for the right reasons. These are the things that we have to deal with. 

Michael Lee: Mio last question, kind of the big sum up, what's the lasting lesson here as you remember this disagreement over nepotism? 

The lesson for me was to always 

Mia McLeod: do the right thing.

Mia McLeod: Uh, even if I have to face criticism and, you know, all of the, uh, backlash, if you will, um, I, I'm not the first and I, [00:21:00] I'm sure I won't be the last, but it, it's important to me. To do the right thing, even if I have to do it by myself, and even if I have to do it afraid, because, um, at the end of the day, I, you know, I ran for office because I want to serve, I want to serve the people of my district and my state, and I've done that well, and sometimes when you, when you're in it for the right reasons, uh, the people who have Other motives and other things that they want and expect from you.

Mia McLeod: Um, you know, they, they lash out and we have to be willing to accept that and do it anyway. 

Michael Lee: Me and McLeod. Thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. [00:22:00] 

Mia McLeod: Thank you for having me. It's been a, it's been my honor to be with you today. Thank you. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee.

Michael Lee: Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.