Christopher Columbus

Mikaela Neubauer's father and brothers often tease her about her political beliefs. More specifically, they will make statements - Christopher Columbus was a good person, for example - to provoke Mikaela and seem to enjoy her frustration.  

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. One of the most famous debates on the internet happened in 2015. Someone posted a picture of a dress on social media and said, Help me settle a debate. Is this dress blue and black or white and gold?

Michael Lee: A BuzzFeed writer named Kate Holderness Then wrote a short article about this post about the dress, and it blew up, captured the culture's attention. The Buzzfeed article got north of 70 million views in just a couple of days, and virtually every news and culture website published a take on the color of this one random dress, and seemingly everyone had an opinion about this one random dress as well.

Michael Lee: What seemed like a basic factual question, I saw the dresses black and blue by the way, had this outsized impact on our shared perception of [00:01:00] reality. Were we all walking around all the time seeing the world differently? Can I assume that you and I see the same red light or red stop sign, or do I need to confirm that our senses match all the time with questions like, do you see what I see?

Michael Lee: And more broadly. What kind of sense should we make over disagreements about what's real? At least three different points of view seem to come to mind. First, we can take a fully relativist point of view, perhaps a little bit of a nihilistic approach and say that we're all unique and all seeing and experiencing our own different realities all the time.

Michael Lee: Second, we can say that there is a norm, that this dress was made from blue and black fibers objectively, and that typical brains or eyes might see that. and atypical brains might process that information or those colors differently. The second point of view, of course, can veer towards a pathological view and see the typical brain [00:02:00] positively and the atypical one negatively, or it can set up a celebratory point of view about the Divergence and diversities.

Michael Lee: Third, we can say that the truth is out there, but it's just really hard to find. Sometimes we think we see the truth with our whole hearts, but we don't. And sometimes we can feel lost, utterly confused, but we actually know the truth the whole time. Either way. The conclusion is not that there is no truth, or that everyone experiences their own truth, but, instead, that the truth is very hard to access, but discoverable nonetheless.

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative, At the college of Charleston. Today's guest on when we disagree is Michaela Neibauer. She is the community services coordinator at the Brookings public library in Brookings, South Dakota. She's also pursuing her master's in library science at Emporia state university, and she loves cats.

Michael Lee: Michaela, tell [00:03:00] us an argument story. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Hello. Thank you for having me on. Um, so my argument story starts where many, many arguments start. Oh, um, Thanksgiving dinner table. 

Of course. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Um, so we're talking amongst the family. I am probably the more liberal one in our family. Um, and we're talking about kind of the, the origins of Thanksgiving and You know, my dad is extremely conservative and also learned what he learned in the, you know, 60s and 70s.

Mikaela Neubauer: So I'm talking about genocide. I'm talking about colonialism. I'm talking about how the myth of Thanksgiving is, you know, questionable at best, um, and [00:04:00] terrible at worst. Um, and so, We're going along and my older brother who has a 17 year age difference, so way older, and he and my dad start ganging up on me, and they just don't want to listen to what I have been saying about these truths that I believe, that I think history has proven, um, about Thanksgiving, and so.

Mikaela Neubauer: Just remember being so struck by how they saw it as a joke rather than, um, something to learn from. And that was something that really struck me. Um, because I, I love having open and honest conversations, but they weren't real. willing to do that. So 

Michael Lee: you mean a joke in the sense [00:05:00] that they were mocking what you were saying?

Michael Lee: Yeah. Okay. Yep. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Um, they very much pushed back making loud, loud commentary about how Christopher Columbus is the best. And you know, what was Nina Pinta and Santa Maria ships were doing great work and stuff like that. Just really, really not taking Seriously, and not being willing to have a conversation about it.

Mikaela Neubauer: And it just drove me nuts. 

Michael Lee: Is that frequent? That dynamic? Both where it's a gang up on situation and where it's a mocking situation? 

Mikaela Neubauer: I mean, my, my dad was extremely conservative. Um, and he, very much had his, his strong opinions. He would allow people to have their opinions, but he would never, never accept or listen.

Mikaela Neubauer: But when my older brother was around, then it became a joke. Then [00:06:00] I swear they had kind of a, they wanted to one up each other on how funny they were, how, you know, right they were. And so, I think the worst came out when they were together, so it very much became a joking. thing where I, I'm not the, the right one in this situation.

Mikaela Neubauer: They're totally right. And they have the answers and therefore they can joke about it and make me feel not so great about the situation. So, 

Michael Lee: yeah. And this is something that routinely seems to happen in the culture. Usually it seems like it's not in person, but of course it could be in person where. one person is participating in more or less good faith, which is that they presume this argumentative encounter is about persuasion.

Michael Lee: It's about me marshalling my best case on behalf of whatever the case is, in this case [00:07:00] Thanksgiving, and then you doing the same in turn, and we kind of see who's got the better case. The force of the better argument is the nerdy way to talk about this. But in this case, We have one party who at least the way you're characterizing what you're doing is you're talking about your history as you see it Your understanding of history as you see it They don't seem to be doing that If in my read of this and correct me if i'm wrong My read of this is they're actually saying things.

Michael Lee: They probably themselves don't believe I 

Mikaela Neubauer: and see that's where I don't quite know I I wanted to engage in that conversation so that I understood where they're coming from. Do you actually believe this? Did you learn this in school and you still are sticking to it? Do you, but they're not open to learning and they weren't open to having that conversation.

Mikaela Neubauer: So I don't know if they actually believed it or they were just throwing stuff at me, joking around. So I, I still to this day kind of wonder if, you [00:08:00] know, they, they genuinely believe this or. It's just something they were, they were playing with. So 

Michael Lee: two things seem possible here and I'm wondering how you would sort these, these polarities out.

Michael Lee: One, they do believe this and they were so self righteous in their convictions about Christopher Columbus and or Thanksgiving and or anything else that they wanted to throw at you that they We're exhibiting genuine joy in presenting their best case. That's the one that I have a lot of suspicion about, but I'll just leave it out there.

Michael Lee: And, or in this other moment, they were both enjoying the routine, the bit that they were doing and the bit that they're doing is seeing who can make you the maddest. And then see how much joy they themselves can extract from your tears or frustration or anger. And so they're engaged in a kind of elaborate, familial Thanksgiving Schouder Freude.[00:09:00] 

Mikaela Neubauer: Very much. And I, I do think that's probably more of the case. Cause again, they're, they're smart, reasonable, usually dudes. Um, however, Just in these moments, they get together and they gang up. And so I think it's probably the latter. I think you're right there. Um, but yeah, it's that's just Thanksgiving in a nutshell.

Mikaela Neubauer: Sometimes with family. 

Michael Lee: What would happen if this was one on one? If you were just talking with your dad, you said, Hey, Dad, let's go take a walk or get a drink or whatever. Yeah. And talk about this. Similar vibe or a different demeanor? That's a 

Mikaela Neubauer: good question. And I never tried it. Um, my father passed away in 2020.

Mikaela Neubauer: So I don't get the chance to try it. But, um, I, I don't know. Cause, I mean, I was mocked when [00:10:00] I registered as Democrat when I was, you know, a new brand new voter. I have always kind of been the the person in the family who has strong opinions, but my strong opinions are never actually listen to. And so I'm wondering, like, would he have engaged in a respectful conversation with me one on one?

Mikaela Neubauer: Quite possibly. We had really, really good conversations, but he wasn't terribly open to changing his own opinion. So he might have listened, but I don't think he ever would have changed an opinion. 

Michael Lee: How does this Instance at Thanksgiving affect your memory, the legacy your dad has in your life. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Yeah. And that's one of the things where you have to balance, especially in grief, I think balance the reality of person you, you lived with and, and loved [00:11:00] with the, of them, of the sanctification sometimes of um, someone.

Mikaela Neubauer: you see them in a better light than they actually were. And I've really had to come to terms with that. Um, I mean, my father had a lot of flaws and there are even things that have come out, you know, a family chitchat of where I go, Oh, that wasn't a nice thing to do. Or, Oh, that was questionably, you know, a little too harsh, or he wasn't open to this, that, and the other.

Mikaela Neubauer: And I have to recognize that while he was a really good guy and helped out a ton of people and loved us fiercely and and was a creative, funny, charming man, that doesn't negate the [00:12:00] fact that he had some some qualities that really irked me and things that he wasn't open to Um To listening to and so that's something I look back on and I have to kind of wrestle with 

Michael Lee: What about you and your brother?

Michael Lee: Do you a do discuss anything contentious now and be? It when and if you do do you find yourself locked in these same kinds of roles where you are? trying to speak truth to power and talking about the importance of history that's been whitewashed and he's mocking you the whole way through. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Yeah, I, I'm going to be real.

Mikaela Neubauer: I mean, the 17 year age difference between me and my brother kind of is a huge canyon to, to bridge, um, because he, and he's my, uh, half brother. And so, um, the, the family dynamics weren't [00:13:00] really there when we were growing up. And so we don't. talk a ton. And when we do, I just kind of try to keep the peace.

Mikaela Neubauer: Um, because I know that he also is almost probably more conservative than my father was. And he's a, he's an Iowan farmer, really stoic, very, I don't know, just not a big talker, not a big, um, discusser of things. Yeah, I don't really get to talk to him about this kind of stuff until, you know, a bigger, bigger thing triggers me to go off, such as, you know, the holiday of Thanksgiving.

Michael Lee: Let me ask you about your role in this, and I was gonna ask you mm-hmm . About your con, your self assessment of your own conflict style. And you, you mentioned, yeah, being a, a peacekeeper, a peacemaker, but I'm curious if, when, you know, 'cause it sounded like this Thanksgiving [00:14:00] instance, emblematic of a larger pattern Yeah.

Michael Lee: Where you are trying to be sincere and are being mocked in your sincerity. It's an e it's a glib question to ask, but I'll just ask it as glibly as I can. Why participate?

Mikaela Neubauer: Because I can't shut up. I'm going to be real. I just have, I have the strong opinions that I have. And I think, I think it's because my family did, did raise me to believe that I can, I can voice these opinions in and be a strong person. They just didn't expect them to be differing opinions from what they, uh, believe.

Mikaela Neubauer: And so. Um, very much like, I, I just want to get it out there, and I, I think I hold on to the very, very, very, very, very small hope that one [00:15:00] day I might change someone's opinion. And that may happen. That totally may happen. But the thing with civil discourse is not always, you don't always want to go in and change someone's opinion.

Mikaela Neubauer: Sometimes it's really about going in and changing someone's perspective a little bit, just allowing them to see the other side of things. Doesn't have to be, you know, all of a sudden they believe what you believe. It's just, they can take a look from the other side. And that's kind of what I, I always try to, you know, When I get into these discussions, whether it's with, you know, family members or, or community members or friends, it's just, I, I want them to see my side of it.

Mikaela Neubauer: So that, and then I want that exchange and it very rarely turns into that exchange. So. 

Michael Lee: [00:16:00] I'm interested in in two things you said that kind of butt up against each other and it seems like two versions of yourself in a way One which is the it's captured in Michaela the peacemaker who can't shut up, right?

Michael Lee: It's a on the one hand. It's true. You want to make peace Peace, keep the peace, avoid difficult topics. Um, make sure that there is a kind of comfort level in the home or around the dinner table. And at the same time, you can't shut up and you want to be heard. And I'm wondering about that hope part that you talked about that small glimmer of hope.

Michael Lee: Is that hope about wanting to be heard? Or is that hope about wanting to change minds? 

Mikaela Neubauer: That's a really good question. Um, honestly, well, of course, everyone wants to be heard. Everyone, everyone wants to be validated in some way to know that their beliefs are, you know, valid. I get that. Um, but I, [00:17:00] I truly think I just have this idealistic sometimes view of the world where I, I just want us to all get along.

Mikaela Neubauer: Um, which sounds so silly, but, um, I mean, truly, I do wish to change minds sometimes, and that's not always the, the most wise goal, but um, I do feel like it's, it's a combination, but it's more that I want to get a conversation going gets. Perspectives swapped and stuff like that. So 

Michael Lee: it's a powerful dream of peaceful coexistence, 

Mikaela Neubauer: if only, 

Michael Lee: and if only, and I'll sort of close with, with a big question about that hope, which is you want to change minds, you want to be heard.

Michael Lee: And, uh, the powerful legacy, at least as I'm [00:18:00] hearing it from the story of Thanksgiving, is that in the pursuit of those hopes. You were mocked. And so what is the takeaway lesson here for 

you?

I mean, I think for me, it's kind 

Mikaela Neubauer: of, I'm a stubborn person. And so for me, it's kind of grow thicker skin, girl, keep going. Like, if people are going to mock you about what you believe, like, you better be ready to stand your ground, back it up, like, I don't necessarily mean that I need to argue further and just like push back against this.

Mikaela Neubauer: This mocking, but like be okay with believing what you believe and accept that not everyone's going to be there. [00:19:00] Not everyone's going to pick up what you're putting down. Um, but you still got to persist, I think, and, and, and try to have these conversations because they're so important. Um, To just bridge, bridge gaps, bridge divides between perspectives.

Mikaela Neubauer: So I think it's, my goal is perseverance from this, uh, story. So. 

Michael Lee: Michaela, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Mikaela Neubauer: Thank you. Have a great day. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host, Dr. Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw.

Michael Lee: Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.