The Apology

Tom Cunneff got into a heated political argument on social media with a childhood friend. Tom felt that he was rude during the argument and personally apologized to his friend. His apology led to curious results. 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Before I had a cell phone, and I didn't get one until I was 25, I used to carry around a handwritten list of my friends and family's phone numbers folded up in my wallet. I could remember some of them off the top of my head, and I also used to be able to drive from point A to point B wherever I was living without a map on my phone relatively easily.

Michael Lee: I don't say this to brag or to date myself, I make these points to suggest that we have outsourced our memories to our technology. Well, not all of us. We remember from math class that 3. 14 is called pi, and that number goes on forever after the 14. One Japanese man successfully memorized, fairly recently, 111, [00:01:00] 700 digits of pi, and that was in 2015.

Michael Lee: Memory is an important point when considering persuasive arguments, not just big numbers. In fact, memory was one of the five canons of rhetoric discussed in what is now the oldest surviving textbook on persuasive public speaking. The book is called The Rhetorica ad Herennium, and it was written 2, 000 years ago.

Michael Lee: Persuasive speeches and elaborate stories. Would have been performed from memory at the time, but even now audiences respond best to speech that seems unrehearsed Even if that speech is really well rehearsed Think of your reaction when you accidentally answer a telemarketing call and you can tell the person on the other end is reading from a script The 2, 000 year old work on memory is notable for another reason as well.

Michael Lee: And that's called the memory palace So you need to memorize lots of information. How do you do it? The author the ancient author Suggest imagining [00:02:00] this information, and then wandering through a palace in your mind that you've created. Each room, or even each wall of each room, contains the information you need to remember.

Michael Lee: It's placed strategically around the palace. What was that obscure court case that you need to remember? Oh, you left that in the third bedroom on the left, upstairs. As you move throughout the house, the information you group together That is carefully placed in each room becomes more accessible to you.

Michael Lee: I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Tom Knef. He is the editor of the College of Charleston Magazine, and he's originally from New Jersey. Tom, tell us an argument story. 

Tom Cunneff: Uh, good morning, Mike.

Tom Cunneff: Uh, thank you for having me. Uh, my argument story, um, began in 2016 when Donald Trump was elected president. Um, [00:03:00] and. Uh, my, uh, I, I was, um, I have a friend in New Jersey that, that the, the, uh, the argument, uh, I had with was with a friend in New Jersey and, um, it started out, uh, pretty much, and it was contained to Facebook, which is, I'm really embarrassed to say 'cause arguing on Facebook is just the most pointless thing in the world, but.

Tom Cunneff: Uh, cause, cause nobody changes their beliefs and everybody just gets in broad sides. And, but I, you know, I actually went back and looked at some of those arguments we had in preparation for this. For, for our podcast today. Um, and I thought I was pretty, uh, even though we were on opposite sides, he's a huge Trump supporter and, and I'm not.

Tom Cunneff: Um, uh, I, I thought I was pretty equanimous in the, in the sense that I tried to see his point of view and I don't think he ever tried to see my point of view. You know, when it [00:04:00] came to arguing not just about Trump, but about. Climate change. And, um, you know, just so, so many, uh, uh, you know, differences that the right and left have on various policies like that.

Tom Cunneff: Um, you know, we just would get into it. Um, and I, I would try to see. Um, his point of view, but he, he, he was, he's a very smart guy. He went to Duke. Uh, I think he majored in history, so he really knows his history. And, um, uh, you know, he, he, he was a good, he was somebody good to argue with, cause I really had to brush up on, if I was going to make a point, I had to, I had to brush up on it, but of course then other people on Facebook got involved in arguing with him and me.

Tom Cunneff: And, uh, cause. There'd be conservative people on his side who could have access to the arguments and, and, uh, liberal friends on my side who would jump in there. So it was, uh, it was crazy. And, uh, but it, you know, what [00:05:00] started out as kind of, um, sort of. I don't know if it was ever friendly, but it was, it wasn't hostile.

Tom Cunneff: It, by a year or two into Trump's presidency, when I, you know, could barely stand to look at the guy, uh, you know, I think I might add it. My comments got more, um, vitriolic and, and so did his, and it, it definitely affected our relationship. I mean, This is a guy I grew up, uh, we grew up together, uh, very close.

Tom Cunneff: We, we were both tennis players and that's how we knew one another and played tennis together our whole lives. And, um, uh, And, you know, I, I guess, I don't know what prompted me to kind of get into this argument with him, um, given that I really valued his friendship, you know, um, but, uh, I, I guess, I guess I like to argue first of all, you know, I love a good argument.[00:06:00] 

Tom Cunneff: which is probably not a good thing. You know, my mom always said I should have been a lawyer because um, I always was kind of argumentative. Um, uh, which is, yeah, which is something I've tried to, and I love being right, you know, and those are, those are things I've tried to become more self aware of and, uh, not try to always be right, uh, and, and be, be so argumentative.

Tom Cunneff: Try to see Yeah. Other points of view. 

Michael Lee: Let me jump in and ask you about a specific point of collision. Obviously, you're arguing about Trump, maybe you're arguing about right v left stuff across the board, including climate change or guns or who knows. Can you think about a specific instance, either where the distance between you felt cavernous or an instance where you felt like your vitriol went too far, uh, for the relationship to be sustainable?

Tom Cunneff: Yes. Um, you know, some of our attack, [00:07:00] we started attacking each other more and more and some of it even a lot of, uh, some of the worst attacks might have been relegated to texting, you know, uh, even, and it, it even, even there, I think because it was on Facebook, I think I held back some of, You know, I was trying to be, I, you know, you're on a public forum almost.

Tom Cunneff: Sure. So I wasn't for better and for worse, for better and for worse. Um, so I try to be, I try to, um, be somewhat, um, not too, um. I didn't want to come off as too strident on Facebook, even though I probably did, um, but I was careful with my words knowing, uh, a little bit anyway, knowing how, but knowing how many people could see it.

Tom Cunneff: Um, but I think in some of our text exchanges. It got, it got heated, you know, and, and it was clear that there was, [00:08:00] uh, this relationship that I valued, um, had deteriorated to, uh, a point where we were, we were no longer friends, you know, and that really bothered me. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, were there, were there particular flashpoints?

Michael Lee: In other words, were there political issues, speeches Trump gave? Um, issues of national security, issues at the border, taxes, 

Tom Cunneff: or just the whole thing. It was just the whole thing. It was just one thing after another. I mean, I, you, um, it, it, it was almost anything Trump did that we would be engaging with one another.

Tom Cunneff: Uh, and he is such a big Trump supporter where Trump could do no wrong, wouldn't admit to any of his faults or anything like that. Nothing. No giving ground. No, no, no giving ground there. He's Um, and I was so convinced that, that Trump was no way, was he qualified to be president, that there was no way he was going to last that I even bet [00:09:00] him, I bet my friend 1, 000 that Trump would not make it the four years, which was probably was a stupid thing.

Tom Cunneff: What I should have said is he'll, he'll get impeached for sure. He'll get impeached. Uh, uh, because that, that is, that, that could easily happen given. Given like the things he did with, uh, Ukraine, holding money for, for arms until he got dirt on Joe Biden. You'd have 2, 000 if you had that bet twice. Yes. Yeah.

Tom Cunneff: I mean, I mean, But you ended up paying him 1, 000. Yeah. So, so at one point we just stopped communicating, I would say. Um, it was before the 2020 election, uh, uh, uh, because, um, I finally came to my senses and realized that, that this, uh, I had. [00:10:00] And I, you know, I, even though we were, there was, it takes two to argue, um, I, I, I was the, I manned up and when I was up in New Jersey, I went by his house and knocked on his door and apologized.

Michael Lee: And what was what were you apologizing for? 

Tom Cunneff: I said, you know, I'm, I just want to say I'm sorry for some of my comments. Uh, and, you know, I didn't, I, I, I value your friendship and I don't want, I really don't want this to come between us. I, I said some things I regret. Um, and. Uh, I paid him the money. Um, and hopefully in one dollar bills.

Tom Cunneff: No, I think I might have Venmo'd him. But anyway, uh, that was a, that, that lesson stung, you know? Um, so, uh, but he's, he was, he was gracious. He did not admit himself. He did not admit that he was [00:11:00] wrong at all. Uh, but he did say, I, I'm big on apologies. And And our relationship has, um, I wouldn't say it's back to where it was, but where we, we text each other occasionally, I see him occasionally, uh, it's where we, but it definitely left, uh, some kind of, um, you know, it definitely, uh, uh, uh, uh, affected our relationship to the point where, at least we're talking now and, um, We're, we're, we're friends again, but I wouldn't, I don't know if we could ever be friends like we were before, but the, you know, the lesson for me out of all this was don't reduce somebody to their politics.

Tom Cunneff: You know, people are more than their politics. And I, I think I was guilty of that. Um, But I, you know, and I wasn't really a political person before Trump became elected, but I was just so, I was just so disappointed that people would vote for such [00:12:00] a charlatan, you know, you know.

Tom Cunneff: You know, I can't, I still can't get my head around how people can vote for this guy. Um, but, and I'm dating a woman now who, who is, is a Republican and probably will vote for him. But I, I will, we don't go there, you know, and, and I won't reduce her to her politics. And, and she's not very political. My friend, my friend up in New Jersey was super political.

Tom Cunneff: I mean, he was. He is, I mean, I can, you know, thinking back on it, he was always railing against this politician or that politician. And it just didn't really interest me that much, but you keep 

Michael Lee: finding yourselves in relationships with people with him. You have political disagreements. 

Tom Cunneff: Well, fortunately, my girlfriend and I really don't discuss politics.

Tom Cunneff: So, uh, occasionally it might come up, but she's, she, uh, uh, but again, you know, she's, she is such a, uh, incredible person that, um, um, Not, you know, people, again, I think I [00:13:00] can look past people's politics. 

Michael Lee: Uh, uh, I want to come back to that one, but I'm struck by this, the doorside visit when you're in New Jersey and you go by the guy's house.

Michael Lee: I'm struck by three things and I'm curious to hear you talk about them. One, it seems like a very magnanimous gesture on your part to show up at his house. and apologize and of course pay the money. But aside from that, you know, honor the bet and go forward with a relationship and hope to kind of move past this disagreeable administration.

Michael Lee: But to the way that you've told the story, I haven't heard much to apologize for. Are you apologizing for arguing? But then three, it also sounds in that moment and maybe in the other moments that you've rendered that you were the one working harder at the disagreeing, at the listening and at the relationship, especially if you're the only one apologizing.

Tom Cunneff: Yeah. Uh, um, that's probably true. Um, [00:14:00] you know, I, I don't know if it, how much it bothered him. Um, but. You know, I, I just, I just wanted to clear the air, uh, with him and, you know, just try to get back, um, you know, to, to some level of friendship that we had before, uh, but it, it, again, as I said, you know, I think it, we're, we're not, we, I don't know if we'll ever get back to that level.

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Tom Cunneff: And I, and part of it is, is I don't, I don't, I think he has a hard time as a, as a Democrat. He just thinks Democrats are the, the, the, you know, uh, that's what's wrong with the world or Democrats. Skull of the Earth. Yeah. You know, and that, that, that if it, if it, you know, if it, If Republicans were, could run things, this world would be a lot better off.

Tom Cunneff: And he's just so disgusted. I think he lumps me in with that crap with, with, with, you know, he blames [00:15:00] me. Um, like he blames all Democrats for all the problems going on in our country. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. And so in a sense to go back to your, the, the Tom principle of talking about politics, which is not to reduce people to their politics.

Michael Lee: You then feel in turn that he's reducing you to your politics and maybe reducing global problems to one set of political actors. 

Tom Cunneff: Yes. I don't think Todd would probably have too many liberal friends like me, you know, my friend, uh, I think he would. Um, unlike me who could, you know, have a girlfriend who's Republican, you know, I doubt he, he, he, he certainly couldn't be with an outspoken Democratic person.

Tom Cunneff: He might, I'm not sure his, if his wife, I imagine she leans Republican, but if she had any leanings, um, I doubt he would welcome to hear them, you know, uh, where, um, you know, I think, uh, I think you should be willing to have a, um, a good give and take [00:16:00] and, uh, you know, that even though you disagree, you can do it in a way that is respectful.

Tom Cunneff: Um, but, but I do get the sense that he is still disgusted with my views and that's kind of maybe inhibiting our relationship now, you know, let's talk about 

Michael Lee: that disgust for a moment because between him and your girlfriend, Your relationships with folks who disagree with you is interesting to me. Do you like having friends with differences, friends with whom disagreement is possible?

Tom Cunneff: Yeah, I mean, why not? I, uh, um, again, I think I, uh, I'm more comfortable with it now. Maybe because I don't need to be right. Um, I'm, I'm more interested. I, you know, one thing I've, uh, I used to do a lot. If somebody said they were a Trump supporter, um, I'd be like, how could you vote for that man? I mean, he's, [00:17:00] he, he gropes women.

Tom Cunneff: He, he, he, he, he cheats everybody who's ever worked for him. He's, he stiffs them. He's, you know, I mean, on and on and on and on. And now what I do is, and I've met people on the golf course, I met a guy playing in a golf tournament who had the great make America great again, hat on. And, you know, it's like, Oh no, I got to play a whole golf tournament with this guy, with a great America, make America great a hat on.

Tom Cunneff: And, and not only that, but he, he made honey that he sold to Trump rallies, you know, and, and I said to him, I said, Instead of, you know, I didn't say anything. It didn't get my views. I said, what do you like about Trump? Tell me what you like about Trump, you know, and that's what I've tried to do, you know, and get China.

Tom Cunneff: I mean, even though I want to desperately rail against the man and get my point across, I said, okay, all right. You know, that's interesting. Okay. I, you know, I, I try, I don't even almost engage them. I just listen, you know, right. 

Michael Lee: This guy's a golfing [00:18:00] beekeeper who's making American honey again. 

Tom Cunneff: His honey was his, uh, honey was make honey great again.

Tom Cunneff: I think 

Michael Lee: that checks out 

Tom Cunneff: was, was his, the name of his, uh, I don't know if he actually, where he got, I don't think he was a beekeeper himself, but if he was, if he, if he were a beekeeper, he would know that climate changing and, uh, is affecting the bees a lot. So 

Michael Lee: it makes for a better story if he's, if he's a golfing.

Michael Lee: Mega beekeeper, but I want to come back to and let's close on this point. I'm struck by super interested in and wrestling with your concept about not reducing people to their politics, because on the one hand, absolutely. One way it seems to me to depolarize our world. Is to not make people the sum of their politics to give grace where grace is due to admit that we all make mistakes also to admit that we all have internal contradictions.[00:19:00] 

Michael Lee: We all live with contradiction some of the time for sure, and some of us live with contradiction all of the time, but, um, that seems like a really, really positive move forward and at the same time. If it came out that one of my close friends or family members was hypothetically a Holocaust denier, that would be deeply revealing to me.

Tom Cunneff: Yeah, 

Michael Lee: yeah. And I would say to myself, how could you believe that, and what are the other things that you believe that even make that belief possible? And then in turn How can I dignify that belief by giving my attention to you? And so it does seem like that has a limit, at least in terms of my comfort, and if not, the politics I would pursue amongst others.

Michael Lee: So where is the line for you? 

Tom Cunneff: Right. I think that would, somebody who's a Holocaust denier would, yeah, I don't think my friend, uh, in New Jersey would go that far. I think, you know, even though [00:20:00] Trumpers tend to be conspiracy theorists, you know, and, and, uh, it's just, it's so disappointing that every, you know, when everything's a conspiracy theory, nothing's a conspiracy, you know, uh, and, but, but it's, it's.

Tom Cunneff: It's sad how, how everything is a conspiracy these days and we can't agree on the same set of facts anymore. 

Michael Lee: But for a few extreme conspiracy theories and or just abhorrent beliefs, the point is still the same, which is when you deal with political difference, try not to reduce people to those differences.

Tom Cunneff: Yeah, and try to be, try to listen to them, you know, try to maybe Maybe you'll learn something. Um, because I think we all want to get, we want that echo chamber of, uh, yes, you're right. You, that climate change is, is, um, you know, the existential threat of our time. Whereas maybe there's, maybe there, I don't know if there's two sides to that, but at least you can be [00:21:00] open minded about it.

Tom Cunneff: I think that's the, the greatest trait almost anybody could have is to be open minded, you know, and at least. Think about what they're saying. 

Michael Lee: It's such a hard position to advocate for in a way, because again, we're back to, you need to work harder and hear people out and be curious about their positions or what facts they're working towards.

Michael Lee: And to say that many of the things you're being curious about are, uh, election conspiracy theories and or climate denialism and or and or and or right. And so then you're opening yourself up to what sound like you're saying are misinformation. Yeah. Yeah, you are. So we need to be curious about misinformation.

Tom Cunneff: I think we just need to

Tom Cunneff: just be open minded to hear what their, what, what, what their point of view is. Uh, I think. I mean, [00:22:00] I don't think I could be swayed that easily that I would accept misinformation, you know, without, without looking at, at facts and evidence and say, what's, what's your evidence for that? What's, you know, um, I, I, I would think most people probably wouldn't be swayed that easily, but, but maybe not, you know, Tom, so much for being on when we disagree.

Tom Cunneff: My pleasure, Mike. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.