Public Engagement

Maureen Tobin was the Communications and Engagement manager for a small town in California during the COVID outbreak. She dealt with a tremendous amount of blowback related to public health information, lockdowns, mask restrictions, and more. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. One of my favorite rhetorical devices has a really difficult name. Antimetabole. If you ever get into a spelling contest and have to reproduce it, that's A N T I M A T If you ever get into a spelling contest and have to reproduce it, that's A N T I M E T A B O L E Antimetabole.

The word antimetabole derives from the Greek suffix anti meaning against. And the Greek root metaboly, meaning change. It's a very specific kind of repetition and inversion as a rhetorical device. And I love it so much that I'm just going to nerd out and really indulge with lots of examples. John F.

Kennedy's line from his inaugural address is among the most famous ones. Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. [00:01:00] But this device that was timely for Kennedy is also quite timeless. You'll find it often in the Bible and Shakespeare. You'll hear it in Dr. Seuss. I said what I meant.

And I meant what I said. Here's a dark example that I also find deeply poignant, which is George Orwell's line that a person may drink because they have failed and then fail all the more completely because they drink. I love this device because there's a poetic brevity in these powerful contrasts. The writer employs the same words.

And orders them differently to show the opposite meaning very quickly. There's also a rhythm, a music to the repetition. And that's why a lot of these examples come from songs. I was living to run and running to live. Bob Seger sang and running on empty. I got my mind on my money and my money on my mind, Snoop Dogg raps and gin and juice.

But if I had to pick one from music that I enjoy the most, it's probably deeply revealing about me. [00:02:00] One from music I enjoy the most is from Annie Lennox and the Eurythmics. Some of them want to use you, some of them want to get used by you, some of them want to abuse you, and some of them want to be abused.

I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative, and At the college of Charleston. Our guest today on when we disagree as Maureen Tobin, she is the executive director of the Davenport Institute for public engagement and civic leadership at Pepperdine university. The Davenport Institute promotes public engagement as essential to good government.

Maureen, tell us an argument story. Well, first of all, it's awesome to be here. So thanks so much, Michael. And I decided to share a story from my professional life prior to coming to the Davenport Institute. Uh, I was the communications and engagement director in a local municipality, and there was, this was in the [00:03:00] midst of the pandemic and there was an ongoing challenge.

about my work by a few city council members. And, um, that was a difficult time for everyone. And the communications piece During the pandemic, uh, particularly in local government was hard and cities not making decisions about how things went down during the pandemic, but we were the closest to community and we were the ones delivering the message.

What did your work for this? Where was this, um, municipality located? And what did your work for as a communications and engagement director entail? Well, uh, I was responsible overall to represent the city through communications. I worked directly with the city manager and often with our city council and all the departments [00:04:00] and we sent out communications through a variety of channels.

And during the pandemic, that was sometimes daily and posting out to social media and sending newsletters. And, and in fact, you know, when we could speaking through channels like this, uh, and a whole lot of in person communication happening at that point. And so you're running up against just tons of fear and controversy at the same time in March, April.

May 2020 and beyond in terms of How many cases do we know of are in the city? Um, are people allowed to go to tennis courts and playgrounds, school closures, business ordinances? What else? Yeah, well, masks. Are we wearing masks? Are we not wearing masks? Not sure how I forgot about that one, but of course, yes.

You know, which, which started things off just in a grand style and, um, You know, what was happening with [00:05:00] businesses and just there, there were the, the County that I was working in, in California was one of the strictest in the country. Okay. So there, there was a lot of disagreement over. Um, yeah, whether the requirements were appropriate or not, uh, in my role as a communicator, it wasn't my decision to decide if these were appropriate or not.

You're literally the messenger who's getting shot. Exactly, exactly. And of course, you know, I think a lot of people had all kinds of different perspectives on things. You know, there were problems within families, there were problems in communities, there were problems in organizations. And I mean, uh, a local government's no different and you have your elected body that has their own, you know, unions.

And then there's, There's the staff [00:06:00] and, and, you know, the city manager is trying to lead things as well. There's a lot of different meetings going on behind the scenes. Uh, in our county, we were meeting countywide, um, you know, with like all the communicators were, were meeting. All the city managers were meeting, council members were meeting.

Right. Let's get specific about, um, this controversy you were talking about, but there's so many collisions, I'm sure. And so many times you as the messenger were getting shot about masks, about whether we're too strict or not strict enough, et cetera, et cetera. So you mentioned having some blowback from city council members.

Describe that. Well, first of all, I should share that. Um, I lived in the community that I worked and it's a smaller community, uh, at the time close to 50, 000. So not, not, not big, um, rather small. A lot of us know each other as just people out there in the [00:07:00] community. So there's, there is. A level of personal interaction perhaps that exists, maybe not the same in larger cities, but communications is one of those things.

Um, and I was just at a communication leadership conference that we sponsored, just Thursday and Friday. And it's a thing that a lot of people think they know how to do. Uh, everybody has an opinion about, you know, how communications should happen. And clearly we all communicate with each other at some level, but when you are.

Leading and representing the communications for local government, you know, there's all kinds of things that go into the background. There's a lot of, it's not just my communications. I'm communicating on behalf of, you know, the city, which means a lot of people review communication. There's a lot of input to it.

And [00:08:00] a couple of council members and one in particular started really, um, getting very personal about The communications that were going out for the city and in fact, uh, requested meetings, um, with me, um, and the city manager and a few others, including even bringing in the spouse of one of the elected officials to, you know, basically say, you're not doing this right, here's what you should do.

the whole, the whole situation was rather inappropriate. I mean, it just, it shouldn't really have happened in my, in my, from my perspective. So they had a theory of what effective pandemic communication looks like and said that you had run afoul of their standard. Is that what I'm hearing? That would be a way to summarize.

Well, that's the challenge. They, [00:09:00] they weren't really certain, just something different than the communication that was going out and. Again, I was in a spot where, you know, I, I couldn't offer complete clarity about all the things that go into communications other than to say, you know, there's a lot behind this.

There are multiple people who provide input into these communications before they ever go out. I am not sitting here alone as Maureen Tobin, um, writing whatever I want, I'm doing the best job I can to share out important information. And it's being vetted by many, usually, before it goes out. So let's take something specific like a communication from you that says the city manager or the mayor or whoever is the power, the power broker in town says that masks must be worn in all public spaces.

[00:10:00] What would be the blowback to a message like that specifically? It was more about the style of the communication. You need to make this, you know, lighter, or you need to make this more friendly, or you need to, um, not, not make it sound so government. And, um, you know, there were other things going on during the pandemic.

Besides just the pandemic. And so we had a lot to communicate about. And the reality was in those moments, actually, we did need to sound like government. Yeah, they need to sound official, it sounds to me. I'm not even, if you, could you clarify what, what this person or these people meant by friendlier? Like, how would that, how would you communicate, hey, our lives are at risk in the friendliest possible way?

Well, and there were people who didn't think our lives were at risk. So, you know, I think [00:11:00] that one person, um, had the sense that, that they were an outstanding communicator and. The type of communication that they wanted to see was more flowery and verbose and, um, that is the way that individual liked to communicate, you know, put like a, at a, uh, eight page.

You know, document to, to describe, um, uh, the poet laureate of this community in many ways. Um, that same person had, uh, communications from the city reviewed by corporate communications for a financial institution and, um, wanted to share that, that they also agreed that this was not. Um, you know, the way to communicate.

Yeah. Do you think in the end that this was about communication or was communication [00:12:00] kind of a proxy issue that some folks had attached to amidst broader social collapse and anxious feelings, et cetera? Yeah, I do. I do really think that. I mean, we all were having our own personal experience of what was going on and certainly Those of us in the public eye were then having another challenge of the pushback and the feedback that was often negative about everything that was going on.

And I think it was more, you know, we've got to make this better. You're, you're the one who's sending all the communication. Can't you make this better? You know, and it's like, well, it's kind of not one of those situations that can be made that much better. And, um, you know, There were a lot of challenges during the pandemic.

And I think I, I began to believe that I was kind of becoming a scapegoat, uh, for other things that were going on for people because, [00:13:00] because in fact, our city council got a lot of, um, criticism. And unfortunately we had a mayor who was somewhat, uh, MIA during the pandemic for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, You know, I think there were good reasons in the background for that too.

Um, but I think everybody just wanted things to be better and Well, a good place to start was with communications, right? When it felt fixable to, if you can reach out to this one person in this one time about word choice or tone or timing or any of, or subject verb agreement or whatever it is that felt fixable, actionable, doable amidst.

total confusion about what we can and should and will be able to do. That was not the only thing going on. You know, we, in our community, as many other communities, when, [00:14:00] um, the George Floyd murder happened. And after that, you know, there were protests and demonstrations and we had 24 protests in our small community that all of them weren't related directly, but it kind of brought out that.

And I honestly don't think we had ever seen protests in our community. We also were involved in big fires, um, during that time frame. And so, you know, there, there were definite stressors and I'll be honest, I had definite stressors. It was a 24 seven kind of role. And I took it very seriously and I had things in my own lives that were going on, just like everybody did that were also stressful.

How do you deal with this kind of consistent conflict in your professional life, especially when it gets very personal, what kind of impact does it have on you? You know, I think, um, in my own situation, ultimately, It, it [00:15:00] was this that made me decide to leave. Um, and I mean, there's always lots of reasons that you decide to leave a role, but you know, it becomes an exhausting.

Um, responsibility, uh, responsibility that feels like no matter what you do, it's, it's not right and it's not enough. And, um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of demoralizing when you are giving it your all and honestly, I mean, I, I am someone who's, I've always been well and open to feedback. Um, I've been in many different types of leadership roles over the course of my working life.

Um, but in a situation that's kind of, and the interesting thing I'm going to veer off was not only did I believe my communications were appropriate and, you know, [00:16:00] good and the right way to handle things during this time. Many of my communications were being shared as an example throughout our county of how to communicate.

And so I was receiving a lot of, you know, positive feedback. And even the city manager was giving me positive feedback. And yet we were still taking time out for these These meetings that, that happened more than once, it wasn't, it wasn't just a one time event. You're getting some real validation for your professional competence, but over time it feels like a flood.

You talked about it feeling exhausting, feeling demoralizing, and then that ultimately leading to you wanting to make a career change. How did that exhaustion and demoralization show up for you?[00:17:00] 

Oh, that's a good question. Um, you know, I, I think just truly feeling exhausted all the time and, um, you know, yet still showing up trying to do, uh, the best job in, in a time that I felt it was very important to, to show up fully and completely at work. Um, You know, I, I guess I'm not sure how else it showed up other than getting, continuing to, to be more and more just, um, dissatisfied with like, you know, is this really worth it?

Um, because in. I have always felt in these public service roles that, you know, you're, you're called to do more. It's not just a job, um, you're, it's kind of, it's for the greater good. Right. And, um, in fact, I, I received an award that's called [00:18:00] the greater good through the, um, the IAP2, uh, International Association of Public Participation.

And so that's always been my focus. And it's like, okay, well, at some point here, Maureen needs to think about Maureen, perhaps, uh, raise that as a priority and not the greater How does this experience with conflict during the pandemic inform your work at the Davenport Institute? Well, you know, it's, it, it was one of those things that I reflect on.

And, um, as with anything, there's always, we can always do things better, right? When you are removed from a situation and can reflect back. But, um, David Brooks published a book, I think about a year ago called, um, how to know a person. And in that book, he talks about. You know, [00:19:00] coming to the table in any of these situations where we're coming with different perspectives and coming with curiosity.

And that, that part has really stuck with me. And I talk about that frequently. You know, if we can come to the table, let go of all of our stuff, whatever it is, and just come to these conversations with curiosity, I think it makes a lot of difference and, you know, I think. in the conversations about my own performance.

I probably wasn't coming to the table with curiosity on my side of it for sure, because it's like, okay, I automatically, I was in a bit of a defensive mode. You are, you're, you know, this does feel personal, you know, I mean, yes, I understand I'm representing the city, but, but ultimately I'm, I'm the person who finally.

sends the communication out, uh, presses the button, [00:20:00] whatever you want. I also think on the other side of the table, you know, if there had been a sense of curiosity, Maureen, we know this is a difficult time and. Help us understand, you know, how this is all working, why are the communications that are going out being shared the way they are, or in that tone or whatever.

I mean, that's, there's still a little bit of accusation in there, but I think when we come to the table, trying to understand the other perspective versus deciding our perspective is the right perspective. And, you know, because then automatically it's, it's more, I'm telling you not being open to listening and listening to understand, which is another thing that I think is really important.

You know, so often we listen to respond and that listening to understand. And [00:21:00] having a sense of curiosity, I think, are really key. It sounds like a bit of a cocktail, too. Curiosity combined with some charity for the person you're talking to, some grace for the person you're talking to, and some humility about how much you've really got figured out in your own mind.

I agree for sure. I mean, you, I think if we, if we all, I mean, this applies awfully, obviously too much broader things than this one experience that I had, but we all have, we all have our own situations before we even show up in our professional life. And, you know, even in personal things, you know, you don't, you don't know everything I've got going on in the background.

I don't know everything you have. Going on in the background and here we are having a sensitive conversation. And yeah, I think that idea of grace and the [00:22:00] realization that we're all just human beings trying to figure it out as, as we go along, we bring different expertise to the table for sure, but we also bring.

You know, the, the sum total experience of our life, right? Um, when I show up here, I show up with everything that has ever happened to Maureen, you know, how I was raised, where I came from, perhaps my educational experiences, my personal life story. Um, and for better or for worse, we all do, you know, well said Maureen.

Thanks so much for being on when we disagree. You are so welcome. Thanks for inviting me. When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. [00:23:00] com