Ego

Tracie Potts was the PTA president at a local school.  When she and a colleague disagreed about PTA priorities, Tracie thought the best way forward was for the whole organization to vote on which option they thought was best. Tracie lost that vote and set about leading an organization while having a bruised ego. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Socrates is mortal. This three step logical argument is what us fancy people call a deductive syllogism. And this specific one about Socrates is the most famous example of a deductive syllogism.

Michael Lee: It's deductive because the first line, all men are mortal, gives a quality to a category of things. In this case, the thing is men and the quality that all of them share is mortality. But it could be that all basketballs are round or all sharks have gills or something like that. If, as the second line says, there's some specific man like Socrates, then we can deduce that He's definitely going to have that quality of mortality.

Michael Lee: This example is a classic one because the logical argument is both [00:01:00] valid and sound. What that means is that there's no error in the reasoning that it and the premises and conclusion are also true in the real world, people are mortal. If we play some games with the premises. Then we can come up with some pretty outlandish arguments that are technically sound, but invalid in the world we actually live in.

Michael Lee: Here's one. Things made of fairy dust can time travel, toasters are made of fairy dust, toasters can time travel. The reasoning works, but everything about the argument is invalid. In the end, whether a deductive syllogism is sound, or valid, or both, what we're looking at is the truth. It's how we move logically from a general idea to a specific conclusion.

Michael Lee: If I really like horror movies about zombies, does that mean I'll actually like a zombie movie that I haven't seen yet, like World War Z or something like that? I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on [00:02:00] When We Disagree is Tracy Potts.

Michael Lee: She spent 30 years as a journalist covering everything from royal weddings to Capitol Hill. And she is now the executive director of the Eisenhower Institute at Gettysburg College, where she is leading a groundbreaking dialogue effort called Conversations for Change. Chrissy, tell us an argument story.

Tracie Potts: Well, let's start with when I was a PTA mom. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I would, uh, you know, my kids went to school and uh, I wanted to help out the school. So one year, um, not surprisingly, we did a fundraiser and we set up what we thought was a pretty high bar for how much we wanted to make from this fundraiser.

Tracie Potts: So the surprise is we ended up making more than double that. So suddenly and unexpectedly we were flush with cash and had to figure out what to do with it. So I had an idea. I'm president of the PTA and we had been talking about putting one of those big pretty light up [00:03:00] signs in front of the school so we could say, hey, you know, PTA meeting next Saturday or next Friday or whatever.

Tracie Potts: And my vice president, who was actually a friend of mine, wanted to do something very different. She wanted to pour the money in the, into student programs, which actually sounds like a much better idea, right? It's the PTA it's for students, but we were already doing some of that. And I thought, you know, this is a one time shot at like money.

Tracie Potts: We were not expecting. We should do the big thing. And she said, no, we're here for students. We should do the student focused thing or build on it. And she and I were in stark disagreement over this. 

Michael Lee: Describe the tone of this disagreement. The sign versus student program PTA disagreement. Is it friendly, collegial, a little heated?

Tracie Potts: It wasn't heated, but we were both pretty firm. And the fun thing, the funny thing about it is I'm, I'm in, extrovert. [00:04:00] I think she's a little more introverted, but she's super smart. And like, we both dug in. So while it wasn't unkind in any way, um, we were both pretty firm, like, no, you're wrong. This is what we should do.

Michael Lee: And the disagreement is public and private or a little bit of both. 

Tracie Potts: Little bit of both. So, um, it was public and private and it ended up going public because I decided, okay, well, since we can't agree on this and, you know, we had talked about it with our, our other officers and our executive team, I was like, let's just put it out there for the whole membership.

Tracie Potts: So we threw it out there at a big PTA meeting and we did sort of a presentation on each option so that, you know, we could get some feedback. We didn't I wouldn't say it was in debate. But yeah, I mean, it was very clear to the members that these people you elected to be in charge are not on one page about what to do with this money that your kids have raised.

Michael Lee: How [00:05:00] much money are we talking about? Do you remember? 

Tracie Potts: Yeah. So, um, we were taught we raised 16, 000 in profit. So over and above like what we had to pay back the fundraising company or whatever we were going for like 6, 000 and we ended up with 16. So we have like 10, 000 bucks more than we were expecting.

Michael Lee: So the question is you convene this all PTA board member meeting and say we've got 10 grand unexpected. I want to do a sign. She wants to do student programs. Here's the case for both sides. What do you think? 

Tracie Potts: Exactly. And it wasn't just a board meeting. We caught in like, it was a membership. So it was like all the parents show up and we're, and we kind of presented it to all 

Michael Lee: of them.

Michael Lee: And then did you represent your side? I did. And then she represented her side in a speech? 

Tracie Potts: Yeah. 

Michael Lee: How were the speeches received? 

Tracie Potts: I mean, I think, um, because it wasn't a, so it was the PTA, like we weren't trying to beat each other up or anything like that. And we, and we were friends. And I think one [00:06:00] of the important things is the fact that we were friends before this and are still friends today.

Tracie Potts: Um, We were always dedicated to the fact like this is not going to be the end of the friendship. We just disagree. And, um, you know, I think the speeches were were measured. Mine was probably passionate because I'm a passionate person. She's always I love this about her. She's always like a level headed person in the room.

Tracie Potts: So I think hers was presented more like. This is why we should do it. And it makes sense. 

Michael Lee: Well, take us through, put us in the room. What are your arguments for the sign? 

Tracie Potts: So my argument was that, so let me give you a little context. And I think I put this in the argument as well. So like we were not, And you need to understand that we were not the PTA, where like, if we want something fancy for the school, we just like call a couple of parents and they write a couple of checks and then poof, it appears.

Tracie Potts: We were not that community. 

We 

Tracie Potts: were the community that was very diverse, where it was a big deal to have this [00:07:00] money to work in. And so my argument was, Our school needs to look nice like some of the other schools in the county and across the district and we have this, you know, old wooden sign. It's kind of the standard thing that they put out in front of the school and it's deteriorating.

Tracie Potts: It's going to deteriorate and, you know, we should use this unexpected cash to make a permanent investment in our school. Her argument was we are always better off when we invest money in our kids as opposed to stuff. And so, um, we can provide more programs. We can, um, provide scholarships to students who can't afford to do the after school music program, which is what we, you know, uh, ended up looking at, um, and that it's really the kids who need to come first.

Tracie Potts: I mean, it's hard to argue against that. 

Michael Lee: I was about to say, when you, when you lay these out, it sounds like there's a little bit of a side bias and a challenge. And so what [00:08:00] were, what are your good answers to that from a pro sign point of view? 

Tracie Potts: So I just thought in the moment, it's really interesting. So I'll talk about what I thought in the moment, what I think now, because I'm a big equity advocate and I'm always pushing for, let's do more stuff for kids.

Tracie Potts: I just thought in the moment, there's not going to be another moment. where we suddenly have the cash to do something we've been wanting to do for a long time. Like we're already doing student programs. We'll do them. This is what we do. This is our part of our bread and butter, but like, this is a moment we need to take advantage of.

Tracie Potts: Um, I didn't just poof, come up with the sign idea. Like we had been talking. 

Michael Lee: So, so this is this special moment. Offers us a chance to do something that we'll never do. Student programming is inevitable. That's the whole basis of this organization. We find ourselves flush with cash. Let's bring some positive attention and give the school a little bit of a makeover.[00:09:00] 

Michael Lee: Exactly. Okay. And 

Tracie Potts: I think it was mostly like she and I, it surprised me a little that she. Thought so strongly about this. I respect her so much. She's a great friend and she's so very thoughtful, but oftentimes she would, um, you know, she was the VP and I was the president. We worked really well together, but she just like dug in on this one and she was like, no, you're wrong.

Tracie Potts: And that I think took me back a little bit. Um, it took me back a little bit, but it also made me listen to her. 

Michael Lee: And did the, how did the crowd listen? I guess what was the format in the sense of, did, was there then open Q& A after these speeches? Did they all take a vote? Kind of like, how did it end up and how was that decided?

Tracie Potts: Yeah, actually, so this was several years ago. I think we actually did not take a vote, but we just took like, you know, Feedback from people at the meeting. And then the executive committee went back and made a decision based on that feedback. Um, and there were a lot of [00:10:00] people who bought into her idea to my surprise in the moment, because I was thinking, you know, everybody's going to see that this is a one time shot that we need to take advantage of.

Tracie Potts: And that was not, a lot of people were thinking the way that she was. 

Michael Lee: Did you then concede and go the student programming route? 

Tracie Potts: I absolutely did. One of the things that, you know, I have always felt as a leader is, you know, you don't just go out and make random decisions. It was the reason I wanted to have the meeting.

Tracie Potts: Um, I just thought more people would think like me. And so, you know, to honor that afterwards, I was like, okay, fine. Then we're doing student programming and that school, let me see. My kids are in their twenties now. This was a while ago. I mean, so this was at least 15 years ago. That school still has the same sign.

Tracie Potts: So whether the weather, the weather, so to speak. But that same sign is out there. And we did lots of good stuff for kids that year. 

Michael Lee: In your, in your mind's eye going into this, this town hall that [00:11:00] y'all had over the sign versus the programs, you wanted as a leader to demonstrate accountability, but you also wanted to win in a sense.

Michael Lee: And so what was it like to demonstrate some accountability and, and be on the losing side of it? 

Tracie Potts: Exactly. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, and I tell my, you know, I tell people, my staff here at the Institute, and I tell people this all, all the time, it's not my money, right? That's why somebody else's is involved in making the decision.

Tracie Potts: It's not about me. It's not my money. At the end of the day, we are an organization and I am the steward of the funds that we have, you know, have been donated or raised. And so I need to be a good steward of So yes, I wanted to see that sign. Like I had, you know, Red in my eyes. I really wanted to see that sign.

Tracie Potts: But at the end of the day, what I thought was more important is doing with people's money what they want it done with it. 

Michael Lee: What's interesting to hear you talk about this is the kind of role that ego can play in [00:12:00] leadership. Right? And so you, you, you express some real vulnerability to even have the debate in the first place and not just say, No, I'm the leader.

Michael Lee: This is what we're doing. You put your ego on the line when you definitely do it in public and say, Okay, this is a long standing disagreement. Now we need to take this to All of the members. And then after the fact to kind of honestly tally the results, even without a formal vote, just to tell the results and say, I don't know, the energy in the room seemed like it was more on your side and so I defer, and I will try to execute as the leader, your vision, and so there's an ego investment there as well.

Michael Lee: Talk about that process for you. 

Tracie Potts: Yeah, it's interesting because I did go through a process. At first it was, this is clearly what we should do. And then it was. I can't believe you're thinking something different. And then it was, okay, I need to fight for this. And then it was, oops, apparently she was right.

Tracie Potts: And then to go back [00:13:00] and have to continue to lead in partnership with my friend, um, and to lead people who now think, you know, I'm thinking, did they think, well, should she be the president? She brought us an idea that we didn't like. She brought us a stupid idea. You know, there's a, there's an ego, I mean, it was a stupid idea, but it obviously wasn't the one that people bought into.

Tracie Potts: Um, yeah, there's a bit of an ego thing there where you want to win, but there's also the vulnerability of, are these people ever going to listen to me when I pitch an idea again? Because that one didn't go over very well. 

Michael Lee: Right. By trying to earn trust, you might sacrifice their perception of competence.

Michael Lee: Because you were wrong on this one issue. So therefore, what else are you wrong about? But you're also really showing that you can defer and still lead and earn accountability. And so it's really a double edged sword. There's a bunch of big issues that come up with this because this is like a microcosm of [00:14:00] democracy in action.

Michael Lee: It's a microcosm of healthy conflict. It's a microcosm of persuasion amidst polarizing voices. So if you could build from this kind of reflecting broadly back on this experience, if you could build out a kind of tips and tricks for having a healthy conflict based on your, your PTA experience, what would some of those be?

Tracie Potts: Thing number one that I think colored the whole situation for me, at the end of the day, what was so much more important to me than a sign or student programs, was that I maintained that relationship with my friend and very good friend. Um, uh, very good PTA colleague and we're still friends today. And I think that's important because, you know, you introduced me and you were saying that, that I work with this conversations for change effort.

Tracie Potts: One of the things that we talk to students in our community [00:15:00] about is seeing people as people. Right. And building relationships with people and rarely, I'm not going to say always, but rarely are the issues going to trump people and relationship building. And I think if that is the foundation, that's a good place to start.

Tracie Potts: So, you know, my goal was. to get the sign, but my bigger goal was to keep a friend and a really good colleague. And that in that way, I think I won, right. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Tracie Potts: And so when we look at bigger issues of democracy and community and bringing people together across difference and engaging across difference, I think it's really important for us to look at.

Tracie Potts: Building the foundation of relationships first doesn't mean you have to be best friends, but it means if you're a conservative and I'm a liberal or vice versa, can we start building this conversation from the overlap and the things that we have in [00:16:00] common, like, We both want our kids to grow up and be independent and be able to take care of themselves or we both want to live in a safe community.

Tracie Potts: And let's kind of start with the shared values and seeing each other as people with shared values. And then I think it makes it easier. to work across the differences. 

Michael Lee: That's right. It's what two scholars have called forbearance, which is pulling some punches for the sake of saving the relationship. In other words, not going full scorched earth.

Michael Lee: And then alternatively to find common ground, even if it's just a shared activity, but certainly a common value. Like we believe in safe communities. We believe in good schooling. We believe in et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Therefore, how can we work backwards to What does a good policy look like in the moment?

Michael Lee: And then finally, as we close to one of the things that I think is a good model here for all of us is how to open yourself up to be persuadable. By the force of someone [00:17:00] else's better argument. And so even though you're reluctant as a leader to do so in your, your, your pro sign agenda got destroyed, you honestly were able to stand up in, in, in a public forum and in private say, okay, I lost, you know, the better.

Tracie Potts: Exactly. And can I tell you, at the end of the day, that school is still in my community. My kids are much older, but you know, I drive by it still from time to time. And you know what my memory is now when I drive? I'm not bothered by the sign. I hardly ever look at the sign. I remember all the great stuff we did together for kids there.

Tracie Potts: And so at the end of the day, I, that was the right choice. And I was much later coming, you know, much later. I mean, I threw myself into making the programs go well, but later with perspective, I, you know, when I see that school now, I don't see a lost argument. I don't drive by and go, Oh, Signed is still there.

Tracie Potts: I don't. [00:18:00] Um, I go, God, that was a place where we did a lot of good stuff together for kids. 

Michael Lee: Tracy Potts, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Tracie Potts: Thanks. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw.

Michael Lee: Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.