The Art of Debate

Sarah directs a literary festival, and she uses her work to show audiences the beauty of disagreement. 

Tell us your argument stories!

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments. How we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. One of the oldest texts we have about effective arguments is 2, 000 years old. The exact date of the writing is in dispute, but most scholars agree that it was likely written around 90 BCE.

It's called the Rhetorica ad Herennium. The work is addressed to someone named Gaius Herennius, but the author's name is unknown. The book isn't interesting just because it's old. It's ideas about persuasive rhetoric and arguments hold true today. One of those concepts is called the Canons of Rhetoric, sort of an ancient five step process about how to be persuasive.

The first step, according to this ancient author, is invention, which means generating good arguments and evidence on any given topic. Say you wanted to persuade the city government that the street where you live should have a speed bump because too many people [00:01:00] are flagrantly ignoring a reasonable speed.

What you'll need to do first. Is to figure out all the different arguments you could possibly make in support of the speed bump, kids are at risk for instance, and then figure out how you can gather evidence to support those arguments, commission a speed study, get some testimony from your neighbors and on and on.

Then figure out which ones are most likely to be persuasive to the folks in the Department of Traffic and Transportation who might just approve a speed bump like that. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today on When We Disagree is Sarah Moriarty.

Sarah is the Executive Director of the Charleston Literary Festival. Which is a world class literary festival with an international edge that takes place every November. Sarah, tell us an argument story. 

Sarah Moriarty: Hi, Michael. How are you? I'm so happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Um, I have very many argument stories.

Um, they were actually very [00:02:00] formative to me in my life because I was a debater when I was in school. And so when I was in secondary school in Ireland, I'm from Dublin in Ireland. And when I was in secondary school, I became a debater. And I debated in English. And in Irish and in the Irish language, which was, you know, super geeky.

Um, but it was very formative for me as a teenager, as a 16, 17, 18 year old. Um, because it taught me how to speak in public, but it also, I worked with a, um, a teacher to found our, our high schools debate society, which is still around today. Um, and it meant a lot to me, uh, because I really. think that it taught me how to think.

So I had a lot of arguments very early on in a structured way, um, that have sort of laid the foundation for sort of critical thinking, I guess. 

Michael Lee: How has debate influenced your life? And I asked that as a, as a debater too, I debated in high school and then traveled the country in college doing debates and then [00:03:00] coach debate for two years after I graduated.

So this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart. 

Sarah Moriarty: Yeah, well, I think it definitely as a teenager, it gave me a lot of confidence. Um, it taught me how to structure thoughts. It taught me that the rhetoric in itself is, is a lot of fun. So being able to sort of wrangle an argument and approach it from all sides, it's sort of mental gymnastics that's challenging and really fun, uh, and a great way to sort of Um, and so what debating really taught me is how to step away from the emotions around an argument and to think about the argument, the anatomy of an argument.

And when you start thinking about the anatomy of an argument, yeah, it, it, it allows you to kind of understand other people's perspectives a little bit better, I think. 

Michael Lee: If you're stepping away from emotion around an argument and towards the anatomy of an argument, um, can you do that in all walks of life or can you only do that in certain species of [00:04:00] arguments?

Sarah Moriarty: Um, depends on the purpose of an argument. Depends on the context and the purpose, I guess, because sometimes if you're having an argument over dishes, if I'm fighting with my husband over the dishes, that's where emotion leads. And like, it doesn't matter. Like emotion should lead there because it's not about the dishes.

It's about something else. And then it becomes, and actually then emotions can be privileged. But so the purpose of that is not do the dishes. The purpose of that is hold me. 

Michael Lee: And I feel like 

Sarah Moriarty: emotion can lead. But if the purpose of the argument is something like, I need to finalize this, uh, deal with a part, with a partnership, with a corporate partnership, and we need to get to yes, by close of business, then there's no room for emotion and it has to be all facts and figures.

Michael Lee: Are there famous debates that have influenced you? 

Sarah Moriarty: Um, well, there's one big famous debate that I'm very excited about. [00:05:00] Um, the James Baldwin and William F. Booker debate. 

Michael Lee: You're excited. And what, when was that? Sorry. When was that? 

Sarah Moriarty: It was in 1966, I believe. 65, 

Michael Lee: 1965. What draws you to this debate? 

Sarah Moriarty: What draws me to the debate?

I think there are a couple of things. So, um, this year is a Baldwin centenary. So it's Baldwin centenary. And so for Charleston, the Reef Festival, we wanted to find a way to mark the centenary. Um, and we were sort of thinking about what we could do, uh, and. The Baldwin Buckley debate sort of captures the imagination, um, because it speaks to a particular moment and to a particular, um, theme.

But I think for us at the Literary Festival, when we're thinking about what to do, I mean, spoiler alert, we're going to stage the Baldwin Buckley debate at the Literary Festival this year. And one of the reasons that we [00:06:00] want to do that is because when we think about what we what we are as a literary festival.

Like, what can we do? So Charleston Literary Festival, what can we actually do? What's our purpose? What do we do for people? Um, We allow people to experience the transformative power of books, ideas, and conversations. So increasingly when we see people turning away from each other, we believe that books and ideas and conversations, the right kinds of lively dialogue can bring people together.

And so this idea of like foregrounding conversation or foregrounding debate is important to us. And then when I think of like quintessential debates, the Baldwin Buckley debate from 1965, the University of Cambridge, is a really fascinating one because you have James Baldwin, who's the poetic voice of the civil rights movement.

I mean, incredible lyrical voice against William F. Buckley, who's a sort of coruscating mind, incredibly respected, um, but then [00:07:00] also, you know, hardline conservative at the time. And the two of them spoke at the Cambridge Union at the University of Cambridge. And the motion was the American dream. Has the American dream been achieved at the expense of the American Negro?

This is the motion. And they both spoke to that. And I think there are a couple of things that are important about it. One is the figures themselves that are sort of, you know, they are opposing, um, but the fact that they're able to come and sort of structure their debates and structure their conversations and face off.

It's incredibly powerful in a room. 

Michael Lee: What is your hope in staging a debate and what is your hope in staging this debate in particular?

Sarah Moriarty: My hope in staging a debate is that we think, again, it comes back to the idea of the anatomy of an argument. So like we understand how to argue with each other [00:08:00] because I think arguing with each other can be. productive. We don't want to exist in echo chambers. We want to be able to argue with each other in productive ways.

Um, and so when we see a debate, happening. So the rhetoric at the highest level, when we see it happening, hopefully that will pique our curiosity or bring us to, or encourage us to challenge ourselves to build our arguments and challenge each other. That's one hope, I guess. And this debate specifically.

So I believe that the themes in this debate are still relevant today, still extremely relevant to the United States that we live in today, just as it was the United States in the 1965. And actually, The director of the debate. So the debate itself, it's a, it's a play stage by a company called the American Vicarious.

And the director is a man called Christopher McElron. And once the debate concludes, it's a 60 minute run. And once [00:09:00] it finishes, the director comes out on the stage and he facilitates a conversation with the audience. He asks them questions like, what have you seen? What resonated? What surprised you? Does this feel relevant today?

And so the conversation does not end with this, you know, staged rhetoric that we have seen on YouTube or that we have, you know, studied that we have heard before. It does not end with that, but rather that's the springboard for then a conversation in the audience. And so that's also, you know, So, I mean, again, what we want to achieve with that, it's again, okay, I see people engaging in the art of debate.

What does it bring up in me? Um, what's relevant and, you know, people can, people can engage with the actual themes in a, in a more rigorous way. 

Michael Lee: One of the hopes is, is that you hope Stagings like this will actually inspire more debate and more debaters. Is that right? In other words, the world would be better with more debate.[00:10:00] 

Sarah Moriarty: I think the word world will be better with more debate because here's the thing, Michael, especially in the site, I don't see any debate at all. I see us all agreeing with each other. But then, you know, I think especially here where everything is under the surface, I feel like in, in, in the South as well, people, everything's very much under the surface.

So what happens when we articulate things? What happens when we say them out loud and how do we say them so that the other person hears? And incidentally. I was very aware of this, like, so what we're doing with the, with the, with the debate is that we're showcasing rhetoric at its finest. But then when you think about embrace the conversation, a lot of that is me articulating what I believe.

But the other side to that is how do I listen? And so at the Literary Festival this year, we're also running a listening workshop run by Dr. Janelle Perkins. And she's just going to be a 45 minute workshop, and she's going to have a small group of about 10 people. And we're going to talk about what does it mean to actively listen to someone?

Because there's one side is to present the flourishing, you know, the [00:11:00] incredible, um, rhetorical. uh, triumphant speech. But the other side is how do I listen? And I think that's actually, I mean, if we go back to the beginning where you say, what did you learn from debating? You have to learn how to listen because my, I, we were always in two teams of two and I was the second speaker, which means I didn't go in with a speech.

I went in just to refute. So I would just refuse everything. So I had to listen to everything at the end. I would say, okay, you said that you said this, you said that, that's all wrong because, and then I would wrap up the argument. And I think this idea of being able to listen is really important too. So maybe the aspiration is not just that people are better, you know, are better debaters and better presenters, or, but maybe we also learn how to.

How to, how to look at hard things, talk about them, and also listen to each other. 

Michael Lee: This part of me that believes that we live in a very debate averse culture, and you were just talking about that. And that can be true in, in cities and college campuses and, and certainly nations. And maybe there's a bit of conflict avoidance in all of us now in these politically contentious times.

And so in [00:12:00] spirit, I'm, I'm such a supporter of your idea that the world would be a little better with, with more healthy debate and to model that. But let's talk about this debate specifically and what draws you to it and why it's a good model for this kind of encouragement and so, Um, on the one hand, we have two people with incredible rhetorical gifts, as you said.

We have an incredibly controversial and difficult topic or motion. We have an iconic audience in 1965 in Cambridge. What happened in the debate?

Sarah Moriarty: Well, I mean, it's set up. So there are two speakers that set up the conversation first. I think that's also interesting. We have two sort of Cambridge union debaters who set up the argument. And then you have. Baldwin and Buckley presenting their arguments, and then you have a winner. Do I want to give away the winner?

Do we want people 

Michael Lee: to? Yeah, I mean, we can all look it up, but yeah, go ahead. Tell us about how James Baldwin won. 

Sarah Moriarty: Well, I mean, have [00:13:00] you seen the debate? 

Michael Lee: Many times. I mean, to put my cards on the table, I'd, I wrote a book about William F. Buckley. Um, and so I've, I've spent many, many years with his work. And so I'm very familiar with the debate.

Sarah Moriarty: Well, maybe you can do a better job then. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your, I mean, since you taught debate, maybe you can do a better deconstruction of what you believe the, the, the winning, I mean, we know that James Baldwin won, but what do you think about why he won? 

Michael Lee: Well, what's so iconic about it is that he wins in front of an all white audience too.

And so there's an incredible, powerful symbol at the tail end. He gives this beautiful crescendo as well. I wish I could quote it from memory, but it's a kind of soul stirring argument. And then very famously, Buckley is such a gifted debater. He's kind of, famous for having these incredible words, turns of phrase, really, really, really tortured vocabulary that was quite intimidating and tough to parse, but [00:14:00] also, um, a real getting a real kind of gifted rebuttalist to kind of a cervic.

And he could really tear you down. He had debated at Yale for many years. But for whatever reason, Buckley was not very well responsive to Baldwin in this debate. And so he, he won, he lost resoundingly. And then historians who have looked at it over the years have sort of agreed with the audience's judgment that if you look at, to use your terms, the anatomy of the argument, that Buckley was just way behind.

And that was in Buckley, to his credit, he hosted a debate show, one of the longest running TV shows in American political history on PBS called Firing Line. He's founded a magazine, National Review, dedicated to debate. He gave debate based speeches all over the country for the better part of 40 years.

But in a noteworthy way, this is one that really got away from him in the loss to Baldwin in 1965 at Cambridge. 

Sarah Moriarty: Did that affect him throughout his, did that, was that affecting for him? 

Michael Lee: Uh, he reflected on it quite a bit. I love [00:15:00] the kind of reversal of fortunes here. This show is, this show is almost never about me and here we go.

Um, yeah, he reflected on it quite a bit. He reflected on it quite a bit, but I mean, This is still roughly the beginning of his career. He founded National Review in 1955. And so 10 years later, he's at the helm of the conservative movement, but the movement was not yet at the pinnacle of Republican party politics.

So it's still very much an insurgent power. And so, and then for, he had a kind of anyone, anytime, any place mantra when it came to debate, and that really shows up because a lot of people would not have gotten on stage. at Cambridge with James Baldwin. And so, and he invited all manner of folks with a wide range of political opinions onto firing line.

And so one of the reasons I'm attracted to, and so interested in your interest in this debate is that Buckley for whatever political disagreements many people have with him, especially those on the left, one of the enduring lessons that he showed was that this kind of [00:16:00] conversation, this kind of healthy antagonism can happen and that perhaps we're all the better for it.

Sarah Moriarty: Yeah. And I think that's incredibly laudable that he did stand up on the stage within the Cambridge Union and have this conversation. And I think that's actually at the heart of it, that, that action is, because I think one of the things that Baldwin says in the debate is that, you know, black people in the United States are ignored.

They're sidelined. They're pushed, you know, they're pushed to one side. Um, they, you know, he talks about black, people and the contribution to building the country as it is, and yet they are sidelined and ignored. And so by entering into the dialogue, we're meeting each other as equals, I think. 

Michael Lee: Sarah, in your wildest hopes, what is, what do you hope that this staging, that the screening and these types of productions will inspire in local and national audiences?

Sarah Moriarty: I mean, I think we kind [00:17:00] of hit upon it already. I guess wildest hopes are, um, that we can be more honest with ourselves when we encounter other people and other people that we might disagree with. We might deepen our empathy. I think it's about empathy, really. Um, we might be more honest with ourselves when we meet people and when someone sort of, when, when we find ourselves reacting in a certain way to something.

So there's a deeper understanding of what's going on inside ourselves. And then how do we be more empathetic to another position? And then how do we have a conversation that might feel productive? And how do we meet each other as equals? 

Michael Lee: Well said. Sarah Moriarty, thank you so much for coming on When We Disagree.

Sarah Moriarty: Thank you, Michael Lee. Hope to see you at the festival. 

Michael Lee: I'll be there. When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. [00:18:00] com.