The Supervised Visit

Madison can't seem to persuade her mom to admit a mistake. Madison's dad thinks that she is wasting her breath by engaging in arguments like these. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments. How we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. I've been a parent for 14 years now, and I've had thousands of arguments with my kids. Many, if not most of these arguments are over small things. Go take a shower. Go brush your teeth.

We can't have a sleepover tonight. That kind of stuff. Sometimes these are fun, playful exchanges. Sometimes I feel like a broken record Sisyphus on Groundhog Day. Just repeating myself endlessly on the same tired subject of not leaving your stuff on the floor or throwing trash in the trash can.

Regardless of the topics, many of these arguments go exactly the same way. I say, go take a shower. And then the kids say, why? And then I, hopefully modeling good reason giving and not just putting my foot down immediately or getting mad, I give some reasons. [00:01:00] Bedtime is coming soon and you take a while in the shower so you should go do that now.

Yeah. Hygiene is really important. Won't it feel good to be clean when you go to bed, that kind of thing. And then these reasons are met with another frustrated, but why? As if I hadn't just made the whole case. And then I have a decision to make to give more reasons to repeat the previous reasons or to resort to authority and threats and say, take a shower or there will be consequences, but after enough, but wise.

In the end, it always comes back to authority, and I have to put my foot down. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Today's guest on When We Disagree is Madison Lopresti from Long Island, New York. Madison, tell us an argument story.

Madison LoPresti: So, my argument probably happened when I was around 15, and I had been at a supervised visit with my mom. At the time, my dad used to [00:02:00] supervise all of our visitations. And my mom and I had been in a disagreement, and basically she wasn't seeing that what I thought she did was wrong. And we kept going back and forth, and I kept just drilling the idea of what you did was so wrong, and it was so awful, and I kind of just kept Putting salt in the wound type of thing.

And my mom struggles with a lot of mental illness and sometimes her ability to comprehend a certain idea just, she just doesn't make it there and she never can see the point that I'm getting at. So it was basically like arguing with a brick wall but the only thing I was doing was making her feel worse.

And at the time I didn't realize that. And I remember I'd gotten in the car after visitation to drive home with my dad And I was feeling pretty satisfied. I had told my mom off. I was like, yeah, you messed up. And my dad was like, what was that? And I was like, what do you mean? Like, it went great. I don't see the problem.

I confronted her. She messed up. I did great. [00:03:00] And my dad was like, there's no reason to do that. And I was like, do what? And he was like, there's no reason to beat a dead horse. And, me, I was like 15, maybe younger, and I was like, what the hell does that mean, like, beat a dead horse? Like, and, he's like, you know, like, the horse was already on the ground, the horse is dead, why are you gonna keep beating it up if it's already dead?

And, he was comparing my Argument with my mom to be that and he was like obviously she was never gonna get the point She was never gonna see what she did wrong. You already had her upset She already felt bad and you already had her apologizing And I guess my argument was she didn't know what she was apologizing for and I kept going and going because I wanted her to see The point I was trying to make but my dad's point was that The whole conversation was just doing more harm than good because she was never gonna get the point But She was already feeling bad and the only thing I was doing was making her feel worse, and I think that took A really long time for me to even understand that phrase because I, for [00:04:00] so long, I just didn't understand.

Michael Lee: So you have an argument with your mom trying to get her to see that in your eyes what she had done was wrong. Yes. And then an argument with your dad about your argument with your mom in which he was saying, arguing with your mom is pointless. 

Madison LoPresti: Basically, yeah. 

Michael Lee: Are you comfortable saying what your mom had done that you thought was wrong?

Madison LoPresti: I'm not gonna lie, I think that's not even the part that stuck with me. I don't really remember it. It was more the argument with my dad because I think it taught me such a big lesson and I still use that mindset when talking with her today of just there's certain things that she'll just never understand.

So 

Michael Lee: some part of you, starting with the argument with your mom, some part of you then, and I'm curious as to whether that part still exists now, Her to see your case in other words wanted to feel seen you wanted to feel acknowledged You wanted her to for lack of a better word to get it And you were willing to argue with her in order for her to get it and then kept as you [00:05:00] say running up against a brick wall Is there some part of you still that thinks if I just continue to argue and argue and argue, she or somebody else you're arguing with will get it and they will see me the way I want to be seen?

Madison LoPresti: I think as much as there's a part of me that would love to think like that, I think almost every human being, their automatic instinct is to be like, let's just push and push and push until they get my side, my viewpoint. But I think really this argument stuck with me so much because I think it really changed My way of thinking because now I'll look at it and if I'm in a debate with someone and we're going back and forth and back and forth and they can't even see what I'm saying, then I'm kind of just like, okay, this isn't worth like, The energy, the like rise that it's getting out of me, you know, like I think I've really taken it into the future with me to use in like newer conversations and arguments that I have.

Michael Lee: And yet it also sounds like you, at least at 15, arguing with your mom had a kind of theory of the case, which was I can be persuasive enough that she or [00:06:00] somebody else will get it. Even if they're dug in, they're only dug in for so long. And then they eventually, the force of the better argument, how compelling my case is will win them over.

But then your dad comes along and says, it's pointless. People are people. They are who they are. Your mom is your mom. You're not going to give her a new stripes or whatever. And then he persuades you out of that, right? So then he continues to argue with you to say, arguing is pointless, which is deeply ironic.

Madison LoPresti: I think that was a hundred percent. Definitely the idea that came from it, I think also too is, I think arguing with someone who is of sound mind that can argue back is much different than the case that my dad was trying to make. And I think he specifically used the phrase of, say, beating a dead horse because it was someone that wasn't capable of holding such a strong argument and such an intellectual argument.

It was more of, I was arguing with someone who wasn't capable of following all the points of the argument. So rather than really [00:07:00] Completely arguing back. It was more of just her apologizing and being upset and then saying like she didn't understand what she did wrong So it was me just continuing to drive a point that was never gonna get there 

Michael Lee: I see sort of three things happening with these arguments and it could be with your mom or with others and the specific case with your mom is obviously a challenge for the reasons you just mentioned but when we're in these relationships we can argue to persuade somebody has what we think is a wrong headed view or they've done something that we need them to realize was hurtful.

We can perhaps argue to get closer in the relationship or we can argue as punishment. And that is the kind of piling on, and maybe that's motivated by anger and this desire to punish and for, to continue to make this person see your pain, and hopefully that maybe causes them some pain. Do you think there was a part of what your dad was saying was that, was that perhaps this is motivated by, you know, the beating of the dead horse, so to speak, [00:08:00] like the damage is already done?

Madison LoPresti: I believe that when I was arguing, I honestly was doing all three. I think there was a part of me that was in pain and angry, even if I didn't see it then, I definitely see it now, and I think that's what my dad was really seeing. Yeah. And I think there was a part of me that just was, I saw that what she had done was wrong, and I wanted her to understand, because I wanted so much for our relationship to continue and, be strengthened and at the time we were really struggling so I think for me in my eyes it was like, oh if I just get her to understand then it won't happen again and but there was definitely a part of you hurt me and I was angry so I kept driving and driving and that's when my dad was like okay you need to stop.

Michael Lee: Has your, has your dad ever Given similar advice about a relationship that's not with your mom in other words said Arguing it's kind of pointless because people are just gonna be who they are 

Madison LoPresti: I don't know I mean my dad is definitely one of those people who sees the best in people normally like he definitely is one of those Give a bunch of [00:09:00] chances and look for the best on everyone But I think in certain points, I think when it comes to a person who I want to say is more maybe close minded, or I think it's just when it comes down to almost hurting me.

If it's like, if it's like a toxic friendship, and I just keep giving chances, and I keep trying to talk my way through it with them, he'll just be like, listen, like, this is, Doing more harm to you than it is like benefits of the friendship. And I think that in that way, he's definitely incorporated some of those ideas into other relationships.

Michael Lee: Talk about other arguments with your dad. Do y'all have a contentious relationship where there's a lot of back and forth, or is this a pretty memorable, rare case for you? 

Madison LoPresti: I feel like this is more of a rare case. Like my dad and I were definitely very close growing up just with him being like a single dad, like we definitely had.

And I mean, we. We definitely had like the banter of we were able to have a conversation because [00:10:00] we're both very Strong headed strong minded, but we definitely like get along very well. He's like my best friend So it was more of a I don't even know if I would want to call it an argument It was more of just such a debate of we were on such two separate spectrums of this idea 

Michael Lee: Yeah, and eventually He sort of won.

Madison LoPresti: You know, he 100 percent won. It definitely took a couple years, but once I got older, I was like, Oh, well, he was kind of right. 

Michael Lee: Right. He was persuasive. And was it the, how did the truth of his case kind of get to you over time? Was it that you continued to experience the same things, and so he seemed right in the moment?

Or the quality of his arguments just sort of sunk in after a little while? 

Madison LoPresti: I think it was a little bit of both. I think for a long time, my mom and I kept kind of butting heads and I would try and go and go and go on this point and it would never get anywhere and each time he'd kind of be like, okay, it's happening again.

Like you're not seeing it. And I think I just got older. I [00:11:00] matured and I kind of understood more the severity of where her mental state was at. And I was kind of like, okay, okay. He's kind of like been saying this all along and I wasn't getting it So I think it kind of just took some time on both ends for both things to kind of sink in 

Michael Lee: right?

Yeah the metaphors that we've been using the brick wall and the dead horse seemed to Encapsulate a kind of stuck point in your relationship with your mom and he was essentially saying It doesn't have to be this way. There is a way out here and there's less arguments, not more. Talk a little bit as we close about your relationships and approach to arguments and conflict with other people.

Is your approach to conflict with other people who are not your mom? Similar where you say let's not get into a situation where we're going to beat a dead horse And so you're kind of risk averse about getting in that same stuck point again Or is your approach to your mom kind of a one off a rare case and you're a little bit more willing to engage in Persuasion persuasion or conflict [00:12:00] with friends family members and others.

Madison LoPresti: I think it depends I mean, I wouldn't say I'm necessarily like a confrontational person. I love to debate just Ideas rather than maybe argue a certain point but just going back and forth and like friendly banter I think is fine. But when it comes to like actual conflict, I think for me maybe that role has definitely played a part of if I just see that This is just not a conflict worth engaging in like they're not going to change their mind I'm not going to change my mind like I'm one of those people that I think I can just respectfully agree to disagree type of thing.

Um, just if it's gonna go I just I find myself now. I don't really go down the rabbit hole anymore of Now we're just going back and forth and back and forth with no end in sight 

Michael Lee: with these agree to disagree moments I find myself extremely confused to be quite honest with you, whereas on the one hand it seems like I'm acknowledging that you're unpersuadable on this [00:13:00] issue and I'm unpersuadable on this issue and it's important for us to remain in a relationship so we're just not going to talk about this thing.

And, It also seems to be the case, both for me and for others that I've experienced and talked to, that it can be a way to avoid conversations. We can suppress a necessary conversation. And it's also kind of like giving up hope that somebody could change. And then here we have an example of you and your dad that were, that kind of persuasion took two, three years for you to realize the truth of his case.

Madison LoPresti: Yeah, I think, I think there's a point when it comes to agreeing to disagreeing, like, if you're arguing about something that has a very broad spectrum, I think you can come to a finalized idea, but maybe if you were to go into a specific of that spectrum, sometimes I feel like some people feel very strongly about a certain idea if it's like my, maybe a minor detail in that broad idea, if that makes sense.

But I think when you have, like, [00:14:00] a very wide idea, you can come to some type of conclusion of, okay, like, they believe like this, and they believe like this. But I guess when I say agree to disagree, I don't necessarily think the other person is wrong, nor am I right. It's just more of, I think that, you know, the sunset looks pretty tonight, and they don't.

Like, there is no right answer, necessarily. 

Michael Lee: Madison, thank you so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Madison LoPresti: Thank you for having me. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail.

com.