Father Knows Best?

A father tries to motivate his son to live up to his potential. 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Arguments are exhilarating. To be in a real disagreement with someone is not just to exchange ideas, but to feel that exchange. In other words, arguments impact our nervous system, our felt sense of connection, disconnection, and danger.

In some forms, arguing can feel like playing, with a rapid back and forth, a testing of boundaries, Some teasing, staying right on the edge of fun and danger. And at some point, and this point can really depend on the context topic or relationship play becomes confrontation and we feel attacked, threatened at risk and our nervous systems in these moments can respond in four different ways.

We can fight, show our teeth and act aggressively. We can engage in flight, sneak out or storm out. We can freeze and [00:01:00] shut down, not able to find the right words or move much at all. We can finally fawn and double over backwards to apologize, take the blame and try to feel safe by repairing the relationship.

I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the college of Charleston. Today's guest on when we disagree is Caleb Lackey. A student from Greenville, South Carolina, who ministers for crew. Caleb, tell us an argument story. 

Caleb Lackey: Man, I've had a lot of arguments before, but I don't really tend to remember a lot of them.

Um, but there was one that I do remember, uh, because it kind of caused me to reflect on myself and that's not something I used, I'm like really used to doing. I got a phone call from my dad last semester and he was busting at me about I wasn't working enough. I wasn't doing all this and I was like, dude, I was like, I'm in college.

Um, you know, and I was just coming with all these excuses. I'm like, you know, I'm doing this class in this class. I'm doing this with, you know, with my, you know, uh, club [00:02:00] organization and all this stuff. And I was just like, he just doesn't get it. And that semester I was kind of like at my lowest point, but he kept telling me that I was going to have to grow up.

And. I was like, I'm already grown up, you know, and this was, you know, I was still 20 and that's in my head, like very grown up, but not, you know, like, like being old and like having maturity or completely different things. And I've had that argument with my dad a lot, just like, you know, your mom's working really hard.

I'm working really hard and you're just kind of like coasting by. And it's really hard for me not to look at my dad as a villain when I'm having those arguments. But like, It kind of caused me to be like, wow, I'm like actually really entitled to think that like, my dad is the bad guy in this scenario for like, telling me to just be a man and just like, you know, you can't just like lay around all the time and get up and go take initiative and all this stuff.

And yeah, and normally they don't. [00:03:00] Like cause me to they don't they don't really cause me to like think about it that much But just like everything was kind of going wrong at the time and like I was like, okay, maybe you know Maybe there's like some extra hand in there because you know, I do work at the Christian ministry So, uh, you know, I believe that God was trying to get in my heart, you know and Yeah, it was just it was kind of it was weird because there's like so many things going on and then finally my dad was Just like you just kind of like he's got to take a step He's like, you know, you can't really co spy for you know, the rest of your life 

Michael Lee: Let's talk about your dad's arguments in particular and then we can talk about your responses as well in the moment and then over time Your dad has a clear claim, which is you need to work harder, right?

What evidence does he offer to support that claim? 

Caleb Lackey: Uh, poor grades. And I'm supposed to be sending them half of my rent money. So we, we co signed on an apartment downtown. Okay. And the agreement was that I send them half, they pay half, I [00:04:00] pay half. And last semester I just wasn't making enough to pay them half and to live, you know, like groceries and gas and all that stuff, so.

I was putting that all that stuff before that and I was like, well, I don't need to work more cause I'm already working enough. And, um, you know, anytime I'd try to like throw up the, like, I'm in classes. And he's like, well, how are your grades? And you know, weren't good. They weren't great. So then he was like, we don't really have an excuse.

He's like, you're either doing really good in school or, you know, not working a lot or you're working a lot and not doing good in school. Um, 

Michael Lee: What does your dad mean when he's telling you to grow up? What do you think that means for him to be grown up? 

Caleb Lackey: So my dad was, like, working from a very young age, kind of like, you know, I'm from like a very rural area, so a lot of, you know, my mom was on her own at 16, so Both of them, like, have been working very, very hard for their whole life.

And [00:05:00] their kind of mission was to like rate, like provide an environment for me to not have to like endure what they did. And, um, I guess because of that, like, I just never. Had to do anything that was like really really like tough or like work like crazy hours or anything to sustain myself because like They did that for me and My dad told me, you know, both of them tell me all the time They're like we expect you to like because of this like, you know Because of this like opportunity that like we've worked very hard to provide for you.

We expect you to just Pick it up and go from there and work really hard because you're not having to focus on other things and because Because I squander that you know my freshman year here I like I didn't go to class and I like failed out of college so I had to like reapply and everything and okay That like the like their whole life of trying to get me to where I am now.

I just felt like I threw away And yeah, that was kind of like, you [00:06:00] know, my expectation was just like, I can go to class every day and come home and play video games or go on my friends and like, keep living like I'm in high school. Um, you know, 

Michael Lee: it sounds like you have some remorse over that period. And it also sounds perhaps like your folks, your dad in particular has some sense of fear that it will happen again.

Is that fair? 

Caleb Lackey: Yeah. It is fair. I like, I really really struggle with like self motivation and keeping myself accountable for stuff And I don't I don't really understand why and that's like why last semester was so low for me because I knew I knew what the problem was, but I just couldn't get myself to like fix it or address it And it, like, it really did kind of bum me out, because I'm like, why am I like this, you know?

Michael Lee: Yeah, and it sounds a little bit like your, your father is hoping to perhaps motivate, to provide that kick, that jump start that motivates you, or perhaps he's trying to have a reckoning with you to see behaviors that [00:07:00] he's seeing, but maybe you're suppressing or avoiding or just not able to reckon with in the moment.

Right. 

Caleb Lackey: Yeah, he, I think, My dad like he and I are very similar as far as like motivation goes, but it's really my mom who is like the driving force of like our family and You know, he's like I wouldn't be where I am today without your mother and he kind of He's kind of I guess really more so defensive of my mom because she works like, you know There's been weeks.

She'll work like 13 14 days in a row Just to like, you know cover like an extra expense or something like that and like I myself am not willing to do that You You know and like when he when he mentions that kind of stuff it does bother me a lot because I'm like Oh, wow, that actually is like really scummy, like when you put it like that, you know, so.

Michael Lee: It sounds like sitting here, you're very receptive to your dad's arguments, his work ethic, your mom's work ethic, what they've provided for [00:08:00] you. In the moment though, when you're having the confrontation, how do you respond? Uh, 

Caleb Lackey: pretty, with a lot of hostility actually. Okay. My immediate like reaction is to get defensive and I don't know what that reflects On me as a person, but yeah My like immediate response is to like be like you don't know what i'm going through type thing You know like like a bratty teenager would be.

Uh huh. Um So yeah, it's just like I don't I don't recognize until like way later and I guess that's why this this particular argument stuck with me Because it was I was actually meeting with somebody out in California Um, One of the guardians here on campus, and he, my dad called me in the middle of this conversation and I, you know, I took it just to make sure it wasn't like an emergency or anything.

And we ended up talking about it and like, it stuck with me because I kind of finally realized like, maybe, maybe like there's a [00:09:00] greater issue. Like at the, at the heart of all this and. 

Michael Lee: Characterize overall contentiousness with your dad. When you argue about this or anything, what do those arguments feel like, sound like, look 

Caleb Lackey: like?

I try not to argue as much as I used to. Um, like, I respect my parents a whole lot. They're, they've done a really good job, you know, and most of the time I'll start an argument with my parents and then like in the middle of me, like fussing at them, I'll like stop and just be like, why, this is dumb. Like, why am I doing this?

There was one day my car got towed and I didn't have enough money to get out of the impound lot. And I called my dad and he was fussing at me and you know, I was about to get defensive again. And I was like, wait a minute. I was like, I'm asking, you know, I'm like about to yell at the guy who's going to bail me out of the impound lot.

Why would I do that? He's going to provide me the money to get out of that lot. Why would I [00:10:00] yell at him? You know, like I'm not the one I need to be mad at. Um, so since that argument, a lot of them have been way more like self reflective or I guess just reflective of, you know, My dad probably knows a lot more than I do.

Actually, he definitely knows a lot more than I do. So, I try not to argue from a place of like, Well, I know what I'm going through. I try to argue from a place now of just like, Yeah, you're right. 

Michael Lee: So you sketched these two really different kinds of responses to your dad that I'm interested in hearing a little more about.

One, you said, sometimes when he fusses at you, as you say, you can react with some hostility. You don't know what I'm going through, you can't walk a mile in my shoes, and so forth. Right? You don't get it. Father doesn't know best. And then on another case, you sound very much like, very deferent, very conciliatory.

He knows way more than I do. And then really mindful in the moment that perhaps you're having a hostile defensive reaction that you should have some curiosity about, and [00:11:00] perhaps curb because he's doing so much for you. How do you balance those two, the hostility and the conciliatory sides of Caleb? 

Caleb Lackey: Um, I, for the most part,

I don't know, let's see, I would say arguing my dad, like I try not to get defensive or hostile anymore because, you know, every time coincidentally enough he's been right, you know, and I also like, I like to think too, that this is also the first time my parents are going through these situations. Like they've never had to, you know, deal with a kid in college who's not putting the effort in.

You know, and I expect them to know 100 percent how to react to that, but, like, they haven't gone through that before. You know, and once I go through it, like, they'll, they will have that experience from my siblings, but, like, I, I, they're going through life for the first time just like I am. Um, [00:12:00] so, yeah, but, you know, also, like, because of, like, my religious background, you know, as a Christian, you know, like, my parents, like, we're very, we're at a point now where we're, like, It's kind of weird.

It's like less of parents. And like, I call my dad and I talk to him about Christian stuff. And I try to listen to him and not argue with him anymore, because like. I don't think that's the best way to talk to your dad, um, especially when he's willing to put up with as much as he's put up with. and 

Michael Lee: so when he's calling and telling you, you need to change your ways in a sense.

And even if you're reacting with some negativity or defensiveness or hostility in the end, you don't feel like the relationship is on the line, right? 

Caleb Lackey: Yeah. It's like, It's one of those things where I, I just know, no matter what I, I mean, let's do something like really, really bad, no matter what I do is going to change, like their, their love for me.

And like, obviously that's, you know, another core tenet of like my [00:13:00] beliefs too, but like, no matter. what I say, what I do, like, I'm still their son. Um, and while I may not feel like that, I'm sure you've heard the story of the prodigal son before. It's like that, you know, the guy is like, I don't deserve to be your son, but the father doesn't care.

So like, while I may feel like I'm not deserving of the parents that I have now, they don't really care. They still extend their love and their grace out to me. Um, so I never am scared that like, whatever I argue with them about my relationships on the line with them, because I know that like, All of the like harshness comes from a place of love and trying to just prepare me for life.

Michael Lee: Caleb, thank you very much for being on When We Disagree. 

Caleb Lackey: Very welcome. Thank you for having me. 

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail.com.