Getting a Tattoo

Emma has a tattoo. Her family has opinions. 

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments. How we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Lots of arguments can be classified in one of three ways. We argue over the facts, we argue over our values, and we argue over policy. Policy disagreements concern what we should do about a problem.

What should we do as a family about our monthly budget? What should we do as a community about traffic issues? What should we do as a nation about information security on the internet? Policy disagreements are the peak of the disagreement pyramid. If you're pushing a specific policy option, you have to be persuasive on the facts.

This is happening or about to happen, and that's bad. You have to be persuasive on the values. We should take an action aimed at increasing freedom, or diversity, or security, or efficiency. And finally, you have to be persuasive on the merits of the policy. [00:01:00] The monthly budget adjustment would actually solve a shortfall.

Another roundabout in our community would reduce traffic congestion. A new bill would safeguard our economy. Guard our personal information on the internet. If you're not persuasive on just one of those issues, your policy argument might be doomed. I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative, the Today's guest on When We Disagree is Emma Tessman, a student from the South Carolina upstate.

Emma, tell us an argument story. 

Emma Tessman: So the argument begins for me before it became like a personal issue. Um, I grew up in a really like religious household. Um, my parents went to a super, super religious college. I'm one of the first, um, grandchildren to not go to like a Christian college. And so there was stuff that was always being debated around me like as I was growing up like at the dinner table Whatever and a big no no was tattoos Um, they were like ungodly.

I heard that so much growing up Anyways, I decided to get my [00:02:00] first one which was actually a bible verse It happened to be a bible verse but um when I told some of my like family members I was met with like such disapproval, and they told me like that I was sinning and stuff, and obviously that was upsetting to me, because I was like, it's literally a Bible verse.

My parents were perfectly fine with it, but this was more like grandparents, my aunts and stuff, and I started getting like more tattoos, and they just got like angrier and angrier, and obviously that upset me too, um, and they would always reference this verse from Leviticus that says that it like prohibits the marking of your skin in the Bible.

And they would always say that to me and so I was like I was under the impression that it was wrong what I was Doing but then I did some more like Like deep diving into what the verse actually means and that's talking about like pagan rituals like back in the bible with different groups of people that would do that to honor like people that were dead they would like Kind of like tattoo themselves, but it's a little more like graphic and it actually wasn't in [00:03:00] reference to like any kind of tattoos of like nowadays so then when I was like I brought it back to them and I was like this first actually within the context doesn't mean what you're like Saying it means to me and then they had no response.

So that's like 

Michael Lee: literally no response. Yeah, 

Emma Tessman: she was like well Anyways the other day and I was like no I brought up like a valid point like you've always used this verse against me and now I give you the context and you like refuse to Like accept that and tell me that like you were wrong about it So that's the basis of the argument.

Michael Lee: So this is like a pretty fascinating debate over a modern ish practice. And how an ancient text applies to this modern practice. So let's, because it can be really broad about how we approach the text. How we interpret the text. What does the text mean? Exactly. Or it can be really specific about, you know, What does the text say?

Emma Tessman: Exactly. Yeah. 

Michael Lee: Is that really the only, are there additional verses that could be used to interpret a kind of anti tattoo agenda? 

Emma Tessman: Another one that I've picked out was like that your body is a temple and [00:04:00] that you shouldn't be making like changes to it But I kind of like I always question like how far does that go?

Like are piercings also a sin? Like it's changing your hair is like working out to change your body. Like are those things also sins then if Tattoos are a sin because that's changing your body. Like where would you like draw the line with that verse? 

Michael Lee: Right. And what does the temple mean? Like your body is a temple 

Emma Tessman: like you should treat your body like your body is like a holy place Like you should treat it well, and it will treat you well back um But I feel like that could apply to anything like the food you eat like whatever all that kind of stuff I don't feel like that's exactly in reference to tattooing yourself, 

Michael Lee: right?

If you don't mind, what was the what was the verse you got tattooed? 

Emma Tessman: So I got corinthians 13 4 and it says love is patient love is kind Um love does not boast and now I have a couple more. I have another like biblical illusion Like down my back and it says the pain you've been feeling can't compare to the joy that's coming to you Like another good thing, but obviously everyone was really upset when I got that one too because it was like a bigger one 

Michael Lee: [00:05:00] Oh, but is it fair to assume that you are practicing Christian given these?

Yeah so 

Emma Tessman: like I identify as Christian and more than half of my verses are Bible verses so like I feel like they're, them being upset with me is so unfair because I could be and also they're all in places that are Pretty hidden like when I'm in professional clothes or anything like you can't see them So it's not like they're like taking away or like unprofessional or anything 

Michael Lee: Why is that important in terms of the theological christian argument?

I feel like placement on the body 

Emma Tessman: I personally feel like they're using theological arguments to cover up the fact that they think they're trashy but they want me to feel like Some kind of guilt that i'm like doing something wrong. I feel like it comes from more of like a personal Place in them, but they're like Using the bible because I feel like that'll get to me more But like they I feel like they just think they're like kind of trashy and like whatnot 

Michael Lee: Have they have you been able to get them or anybody this kind of general them who are anti tattoo for whatever [00:06:00] reason?

Get anybody to admit that perhaps the motivation is not just textural Yes. Or scriptural. So 

Emma Tessman: when I was writing my, because we wrote an essay on this for Ms. Baker's class, I called up my grandma, who's like, she's like the main, the main one that, um, disagrees with me. And I was like, will you list out some of your arguments for why you dislike my tattoos?

Like, I don't want to fight, I just want you to like, give me like, the information. And she started out like, with more like biblical stuff, and then she was like, and honestly, I just think they look bad. She was like, I just think they're trashy and I was like, okay, there we go There's like the main point Which I guess like I could see like part of her point because maybe some of the people she knows That are trashy happen to have tattoos.

So she automatically assumes that those two have like a correlation But that doesn't mean everyone that has tattoos is trashy, or that everyone who's trashy has to have tattoos. Like, I don't think those things correlate. 

Michael Lee: The transitive property of trashiness. Yeah. As the way leads on to way. 

Emma Tessman: [00:07:00] Right. 

Michael Lee: First comes the tattoo, then comes the trashiness.

Right, exactly. Or is it the other way around? Yeah, who knows? Exactly. 

Emma Tessman: So I was like, okay, thank you for like, saying that. And then she was also talking about how you can't remove them, you But now as like, technology expands, like, there's multiple ways to get tattoos removed. You can do dermabrasion, there's creams you can use, um, you can have it lasered off, which is like, expensive and painful, but if I do want to remove my tattoos at some point, like, I could, if I wanted to.

Michael Lee: Right, which sort of begs the question of whether that is a sin that needs to be washed away. 

Emma Tessman: Right, yeah. I personally, and like, my parents have talked about it, and my dad even was a pastor, and he majored in theology, and, um, He says that he sees no issues with it and that the verse that she said if you dive deeper into like the context of it It has to do with like all the pagan rituals.

It has nothing to do with like Tattoos for fun and some people even in my family. I feel like would argue that piercings are also could be a sin But that's like very strict conservative members of my family [00:08:00] Like my grandma doesn't believe that but I feel like Piercings and tattoos are kind of similar in the way that it's like a pretty permanent change to your body You 

Michael Lee: Yeah, 

Emma Tessman: and I would disagree that both of those are sin.

Michael Lee: Let's broaden out and talk about because there's so much religious prohibition about the body What we do to the body right what we do with the body Are there other other ways in which this? Disagreement that sounds cultural. It sounds scriptural. It sounds a little generational. Yeah, I'm hearing you correctly What other ways does this show up besides tattoos and maybe piercings?

Does it show up in dancing? Does it show up in music? Does it show up in places you hang out? 

Emma Tessman: I feel like yeah, she Often comments on like my clothes and stuff and like what if what I'm wearing is appropriate And I always just say my parents don't have an issue with it Then I feel like you shouldn't either and like she has like called my mom over and been like are you really okay with them?

I'm wearing this my mom's like I let her out of the house in it. I don't care. Um, And [00:09:00] definitely like everyone was a little surprised. I guess this would extend to like school I did go to like a private christian school growing up a little bit and then my parents moved me to public school And people were a little bit like upset about that as well And then I didn't choose to go to a christian university for college Also, I was met with a little like people were like, why aren't you going to bob jones?

Which is like the very like strict conservative school in my hometown And I was just like, I just don't choose to. And once again, like, my parents don't have an issue with it. So like, I don't really have an issue with it. I feel like my parents are the only ones that could really like, speak on it. And I would understand that because they're my parents.

But like, I don't feel like it's anyone else's spot to say that. 

Michael Lee: Right, 

Emma Tessman: but 

Michael Lee: tattoos are such an interesting symbol for many people of individuality of freedom of it's my body But also of rebellion. 

Emma Tessman: Yeah, 

Michael Lee: is there a part of you that felt rebellious in your attraction to tattoos 

Emma Tessman: a little bit? Yeah, I I also I put this in my essay, too I really love to argue and so I was like and I'm the oldest grandchild [00:10:00] And so I and I would consider myself like, you know A lot less conservative than my family.

So I would always like to bring up like touchy issues like at the dinner table and see like, you know, which is kind of bad, but as a kid like I just like to argue and I'd bring up stuff that I knew she would like argue against with me and then we go back and forth. And now I don't do that as much because I don't like to cause issues and stuff, but I definitely like felt like, oh nice, like I'm good.

But I didn't tell her that I got a tattoo for a while and then I like finally showed her. I also 

Michael Lee: What prompted you to show her? 

Emma Tessman: I think we were just hanging out one day and I was like Do you want to see something cool that I got? And then she was like knowing 

Michael Lee: that she would not think it was. Yeah, she did not 

Emma Tessman: think it was cool.

I also got um, My nose pierced when I was like 14 and my mom went and got hers pierced with me, too Um, and that was also kind of big that my mom did that and that I did it too and also my mom's like In her 40s. So like that was also kind of like she was like, are you having a midlife crisis to my mom?

She's like no, I just want to get my [00:11:00] nose pierced and I got my belly pierced too That was also like kind of a big deal But once again, my parents let me do those things and like they didn't care and I think all these 

Michael Lee: actions are targeted In a way provocative towards your grandmother both from your mom and you if I'm hearing this correctly It's 

Emma Tessman: not like I did them to like I I'd always wanted these things as I saw them growing up I thought they were so cool, but part of me knew like that.

She would be upset So like and my dad's parents Super super strict. I don't even think they know that I have them because I know if I if they saw that I had Them that would be like a really big deal. 

Michael Lee: You wouldn't say hey, do you want to see something? No, not for that. Me and my grandma 

Emma Tessman: are closer like while we disagree We have like a we're like closer so I would show her but I would probably not show my dad's parents because they're Super super strict.

Michael Lee: What's the risk there that they would cut you out that they wouldn't talk to you that they would yell? 

Emma Tessman: They'd probably like write me a letter. There's been time. There's kind of a backstory to that. They are very against like [00:12:00] drinking and everything like completely at all. Not even just being like drunk, just drinking at all and they had seen One time that we had alcohol at our house because my dad obviously he's an adult like he'll drink sometimes Like have a beer or whatever and they saw that and they were so upset and they wrote I want to say like five page letter to my dad about how disappointed they were and how they didn't raise him like this and stuff And didn't talk to him for a while after the letter.

Michael Lee: This is really not important, but I'm curious. Was it handwritten or typed? 

Emma Tessman: It was handwritten. Yep. 

Michael Lee: Longhand cursive the 

Emma Tessman: whole nine. Yep. So, 

Michael Lee: mailed in the post? 

Emma Tessman: I think they used to live in Indiana. I believe this was when they'd already moved down. So they probably just put it in our mailbox 

Michael Lee: With a series of arguments or just sort of guilt appeals 

Emma Tessman: Guilt appeals it's kind of a reoccurring theme here But yeah, and I remember that my dad just like calmly wrote back and was like, well, it's once again going back they'll say like there's verses where like Drinking is a sin but there's also [00:13:00] The context is important like being drunk would be considered a sin drinking is not a sin and Jesus turned water into wine and like that's Like, drinking is allowed for fellowship and stuff, if it's in the wrong context, I get that it could be a sin, but just drinking alone is not a sin.

Yeah. So he also said that to them. 

Michael Lee: Sure. I'm interested in the ways in which your provocative, the things that you think are cool can also be provocative towards older generations. Right, 

Emma Tessman: yeah. 

Michael Lee: And then also, there are ways in which you could have rebelled that are far more threatening, to be frank. Then getting a bible verse tattoo.

So if you had like a list of possible rebellious options getting a bible verse tattooed among the most 

Emma Tessman: That's that's what I feel like 

Michael Lee: yeah Talk talk through a little bit of that because it seems like you're balancing two things at the same time, which is I'm going to express my individuality. I'm going to pursue things that I think are cool or fun.

Yeah, I'm going to be a free [00:14:00] person independent of you. I also might poke you as I do it. 

Emma Tessman: Right. Yeah, 

Michael Lee: but I'll do so in a way that maintains our relationship and minimizes the risk to our relationship. Exactly. 

Emma Tessman: Yeah, and I feel like while I was maybe more of like a, I guess rebellious like teenager. Um, in my family.

There are other things that I felt like I did that kind of like balanced it out. Like for one, I'm like a pretty good student, like all in high school. Um, and I also like, I love like fellowship with my family. I'm probably the grandchild that hangs out the most with my grandparents. Like even now at college, I text them every week.

I try and call them. I would just go visit them like at their house to go like stop by and stuff. Um, I'm always interested to hear her stories. I'll take her shopping sometimes, stuff like that. Yeah. Because like I like hanging out with them and like maybe the other grandkids aren't as like I Don't know.

I wouldn't even consider myself out there, but they would probably consider me out there Even though the other grandkids are like safer. They don't do those things So like I feel like I could it's more acceptable for me to like be [00:15:00] more rebellious because we have like a better relationship I guess I would say 

Michael Lee: Would you do anything differently in terms of either the conduct rebelliousness for lack of a better word or the reveal?

Emma Tessman: I feel like no because also I feel like it kind of opens her up a little bit because I wouldn't say that she would See me as trashy. So maybe this will like change her kind of narrow mindedness that like everybody who has Tattoos like is trashy. So maybe I could And that's what I always try to do is like, I try to explain to her like, the world is not like it was when you were growing up.

And like, you grew up in a very small sect. It was like, very conservative. And like, the world is different now and that's not a bad thing. Like, people are going to be doing things that you might have Seen as like absolutely horrible, but that's like acceptable now and that it doesn't make it bad that it's acceptable now 

Michael Lee: Yeah, the adjective trashy is often associated with Tattoos, but other things as well and it's come up a few times Yeah, when you use it or when your grandmother uses it or anybody in [00:16:00] your family uses it What do you think they mean by that term?

Emma Tessman: I feel like she sees it as someone that has like I think Like, no morals. Probably, like, in her head, what would pop into her head would be, like, someone that lives in a trailer park, has a baby daddy, um, and, like, has no job. That's probably what she pictures when she sees trashy. I see someone, like, I would consider the word trashy to mean, like, someone that, like, doesn't have morals or doesn't, like, care about what other people think in a bad way.

Like, that just is kind of, like, I don't know. No morals, I guess, is what I would say the basis of mine is. 

Michael Lee: And the morals thing means they're, they don't have a set of ethics or Yeah, 

Emma Tessman: like Belief 

Michael Lee: system or they're not Christian? 

Emma Tessman: Uh, like, belief system. Like, I wouldn't say trashy would be, like, non Christian.

Right. I feel like I've met some pretty trashy Christians. Like, someone who just doesn't, like, they don't have care for other people's feelings or whatever. Like, they [00:17:00] just kind of do whatever and they don't care how it affects the people around them. Like, they don't. There's no like obligation to be nice or anything like that.

That's what I would consider it Like I feel like it has nothing to do with like your appearance or anything Like I feel like anyone can be trashy like you could be I don't also feel like it's an issue of like income Like I feel like a rich person person could be trashy Just as much as a poor or like low income person can be trashy.

Yeah, often associated 

Michael Lee: with class, often associated with Hedonism, certainly associated with appearance. Yeah, visible appearance to other groups of people, hence the focus on the tattoo, but other things as well. Yeah, but in your interpretation Signifies a kind of lack of respect. Lack of respect. Yeah, that's 

Emma Tessman: a great word.

Yeah, that's what I feel like I'm gonna do 

Michael Lee: whatever I want and I don't really care what you think, right? 

Emma Tessman: But I also feel like it's a mean word and it has like bad connotations So I probably I feel like I wouldn't really use that much in like my normal life to be like that person's trashy it has such a bad connotation and it's like People connect it with like class or appearance or stuff, but I don't really feel like that's how I would use it [00:18:00] 

Michael Lee: As we close, I'm curious to get you to reflect from kind of a 10, 000 foot view.

What's the lesson here? What's the takeaway from this dispute over to tattoo or not to tattoo? And is that Christian or not? 

Emma Tessman: Um, okay. So I would say that if people are using Bible verses, um against you or anything to definitely like dive deeper and look into the context because often when people are using those things They have not looked in the biblical context and they don't actually know what the verse they're using means 

Michael Lee: in the original writing 

Emma Tessman: Right in the original writing as it is intended to be written um and That you shouldn't have to feel bad for doing things that are more modern if you don't feel like personal conviction for it and you feel like it's not a bad thing.

You shouldn't have to feel guilty for doing something like that. And also that it's good to have these like conversations with people around you. Like conflict is not always bad and family. Like it can be good to try and change opinions and also like change your own opinion. If you feel like you need to adapt it with new information.

Michael Lee: Emma [00:19:00] Tesman, thank you so much for being on when we disagree. 

Emma Tessman: Thank you. 

Michael Lee: When we disagree is recorded at the college of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.