Young Love

Madelynn's mom feels strongly that getting into a serious relationship while you're young is a bad idea. Madelynn isn't so sure. 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Arguments can be many things, terrifying, maddening, boring, and beyond, but they can also be truly, utterly exhilarating. The feeling in your body when you land a well timed, well phrased shot, a did everyone just hear what I just said sort of moment, is intoxicating.

The feeling in your body when you get what you want after a contentious exchange, maybe with someone close to you finally agrees to something you've asked for. Maybe you just negotiated a raise after a lengthy back and forth. That's intoxicating too. It's a speedy euphoric high. It's the kind of feeling you want to tell all of your friends about your rhetorical glory over and over.

These thrills seem to be reserved for those times when you win, but I've even had some version of it. In a [00:01:00] draw, there's a palpable thrill in evenly matched arguments when every move of yours is matched by an equal counter move, when you give as much as you get and hopefully emerge proud, humbled, surprised, and more respectful of the other person all at the same time.

I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the College of Charleston. Our guest today is Madeline Bryan, a student from South Carolina. Madeline, tell us an argument story. 

Madeline Bryan: Hey guys, so I have an argument that I had with my mom a few different times throughout my life and it's just about having a relationship when you're a youngin and she thinks that it's just kind of silly to like date anyone.

when you're just like learning about yourself, learning about life and just kind of how you fit into society. And so [00:02:00] I kind of, I chose this like particular argument for a paper I'm writing in a class. Because it's, one, it's kind of easy to write about because I do agree with both sides, so I can argue both sides.

But also, it's just, it's an argument that like, has irked me throughout my whole life. And, um, Um, I just find it really interesting the way that she like puts her own sort of like her own life into the argument. Because she's like, she went through a lot of different like, just like small relationships that were kind of like silly and just not like super serious.

But she wishes that she had more time like to herself and learning about herself. And to that I just say, like, um, there's a lot of different ways that you can learn about yourself through relationships with other people. And I feel like it's really important to, like, [00:03:00] to learn from other people as well.

So, I don't know, that's, that's like the gist of the argument that I've got. 

Michael Lee: Okay, let's get both sides of the argument down on paper here. Okay. So, the claim is that your mom is making, if I could put words in her mouth very specifically, don't date south of the age of 

Madeline Bryan: Probably 

Michael Lee: Don't date at all. 

Madeline Bryan: Not, so I don't think it's don't date at all, but don't date for like, Like, just kind of, just like, it's, she's so weird about it.

She's she, cause she wants you to like talk to people and like have fun, but not be like so serious about it. 

Michael Lee: Date casually, only date casually south of 22. 

Madeline Bryan: Yes. 

Michael Lee: Because. 

Madeline Bryan: So she married when she was 24 and like had kids the whole shebang and then like got a divorce. It was, but it was just a messy relationship the whole time.

And, [00:04:00] um, I think her, her whole thing about it though is like she's putting her own life into it, like I said. So she kind of grew up with, um, just like a controlling kind of family life. And then I think she didn't give herself the time by herself when she got to college, like when she was able to move away.

She grew up in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, came to University of South Carolina. So she just sort of like, like, didn't give herself time to grow up when she did leave and like, what, and just let herself take control of her own life. Like she was describing it to me the other day. She was like, college is the first time that you're away from home.

You can eat at whatever time you want, you can choose what you want to eat, like, it was just very like, you have this freedom that you've never had in your life before, and you shouldn't have to, um, Think about your day in regards [00:05:00] to some other person, if that makes sense. 

Michael Lee: So, you have a newfound freedom, she says.

Don't throw that away by getting tied down. And in a larger sense, don't make the same mistakes that I made. Yes, exactly. Because she's trying to save you, in her own mind, trying to save you some pain that she felt. 

Madeline Bryan: Right. And I feel like I definitely grew up in a different world. Completely different household than she did.

Yeah. So, I def I think, Personally, The The reason that this argument irks me so much is because, I feel like, I grew up with a lot of, Maturity and freedom already, That I just kind of, Gave myself. Like, I wasn't necessarily a bad kid, But I was just kind of, I was really able to like, To make a good statement for myself and stand up for myself when I was like, But I should I should have dessert tonight because I want it like I don't know Like I was really good at that kind of thing.

Michael Lee: Is there some part of you that is that [00:06:00] feels rebellious about your mom's prohibition on Serious relationships, which seems frankly a little bit ironic 

Madeline Bryan: right 

Michael Lee: looking at it I know like I'm rebellious enough to have a super stable long term relationship exactly because you don't want it, 

Madeline Bryan: right? And see like that's the thing is right now.

I don't want that at all So that's why I chose this argument because I can argue both sides like I don't I don't really feel the need for that in any way, but I, I have had a relationship before that lasted like two years in high school, and I don't, I definitely don't regret it, but I do get where she's coming from because it was, I hadn't learned a lot about myself as a person at that time, and so it was just, it got really codependent in a way, but I feel like if I hadn't had that relationship, I wouldn't have known Like, my limits as far as my codependent ways and just different things [00:07:00] regarding relationships.

Michael Lee: What do you mean by codependent? 

Madeline Bryan: So it was very, um, Like we couldn't spend a day without each other and it was like high school. Like girl, you're 17 Go go hang out with your friends, you know, but um but yeah, so it was just it was like just kind of unhealthy to at a point and I mean as unhealthy as teenagers can be like, but um, but yeah So it just kind of got to the to a place where I didn't want it to be and so we just kind of mutually Really?

Yeah, let's be done with this now and I also was moving And 

Michael Lee: so then your mom is In your ear at the same time saying, this is what can happen if you're not a fully formed, self reflective individual, you can start to find yourself too much in a dynamic, in a relationship and not as an individual. And then you, some part of you is saying, yeah, sure.

Maybe that's possible. And that certainly happened to you. [00:08:00] But also perhaps I can find myself as an individual by exploring how I relate to others in a serious long term relationship. Is that a fair characterization of your claim? 

Madeline Bryan: And so that's kind of where my mind was at then in high school. And now, I, whenever, like, a few months ago I was like, Mom, like, I'm seeing, I'm seeing this guy, like, you'd love him, blah blah blah.

She's like, Ugh, you're so young. You need, you need to wait. Like, wait. You should end things with him. And I was like, no, and it lasted like another few months. And I was like, uh, I really, I want to end things with him, I don't want to do this anymore. She was like, yeah, I told you, but, but I feel like that's what irks me so much is that.

Like I come to her with this and she's just like no and so and I think just like the whole thing of being open with it and kind of Just like letting it happen and just letting me like make my own mistakes, you know And I but I understand like she's [00:09:00] she's a mother. She wants to protect the house and everything But I don't care.

So 

Michael Lee: I'm fascinated by some thresholds here. Like right what? You At what point in, quote unquote, seeing somebody does it become too much, in her mind? Like five dates? Ten dates? Four months? 

Madeline Bryan: Right, I think, I think it's probably like a few weeks, or like over a month. 

Michael Lee: And exclusivity, of course, would really accelerate that as an accelerating condition.

And then secondly, I'm fascinated by this idea that at some point, thinking from my, in my own head, you know, am I, do I meet the conditions that your mom has set out for you as a fully actualized, Self aware, completely independent individual. I know. At 45 years old. And I'm not sure I know the answer to that question.

And so the idea [00:10:00] that At 23, your fingers are going to snap, or at 25, when everybody's fully developed in their heads. Yeah. Then you come out of that immune from these kinds of mistakes or codependent relationships or toxic dynamics or, or, or, um, it strikes me as a little bit of a fantasy, maybe a useful fantasy.

Madeline Bryan: Well, my sister is 26 years old. Um, and she just got, she just ended like a three year relationship that she had. 

Michael Lee: Yeah. 

Madeline Bryan: And so like, I don't know. I think, I mean, I definitely understand where she's coming from. To the point of like, learn about yourself and how you fit into the world. Um, and just those sorts of things.

Like, like, don't take it or take advantage of the freedom that you have right now. Because I think. And the ages of 18 to 22, you, you are kind of allowed to make a lot of mistakes that you wouldn't, that if you made those same mistakes at like [00:11:00] 25. It would be like, oh, why, what are you doing? Um, and, so like I get it to that certain extent, but at the same time, there's no way that, that I'm not gonna be in, that I'm, there's no way that I'm gonna find like, the love of my life when I'm, Like right when I turned 24.

I don't know. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, I think that's really kind of a fascinating commentary on What freedom and relationships means or what freedom as an individual means right because she's saying go be free Don't be tied down Don't be sucked into the same mistakes that I'm making and on some level you're saying My freedom is defined by my ability to make the same choices that you made.

Right. Even if they end up going just the same way they went for you. 

Madeline Bryan: Exactly. And I feel like that's where it [00:12:00] gets kind of tricky, too. Because, like, I have this freedom to go make mistakes and get messy and everything. But then I'm still kind of making those mistakes. And then I feel like I don't want to have this freedom.

Because that is where you get, I feel like people get a little bit scared at that point in time. Because they have, they are able to go out and make their own decisions and kind of like, see whoever they want to see. But then, I don't know, they learn a little too much about themselves, they get a little too introspective.

Michael Lee: Yeah, let's not learn too much about ourselves. Let's close and ask you to kind of sum this up in the form of giving the kind of advice that your mom gave to you to a hypothetical friend. Right. So your hypothetical friend. ask you for Madeline's advice on dating, and you have these two polls, one poll saying date whoever you want to date, [00:13:00] maybe just short term relationships, nothing exclusive, nothing serious.

And then on the other side, no, be open to these kinds of long term monogamous pairings. Or something in the middle. What would you, what advice would you give now? 

Madeline Bryan: I think what I would say is, Definitely take the time to learn about yourself so that you kind of know what you want and also more importantly what you don't want.

Um, and just take that time and then go out and like have fun with whatever and just, yeah, like kind of be open to different experiences because there are like a million different types of relationships that you can have and every person you're going to meet is different. So just be open to the people that you see and talk to.

Mm-Hmm. . And just have conversations and have fun. 

Michael Lee: This, this sounds a little bit like your mom. 

Madeline Bryan: Yep. , 

Michael Lee: Madeline Brian, [00:14:00] thanks so much for being on the show. 

Madeline Bryan: Thank you. This was so fun.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse KZ and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at When We disagree@gmail.com.