Cancel Culture

Jay and his ex-girlfriend have a longstanding disagreement about "cancel culture." 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. How do you persuade someone to do more good in the world? Let's be more specific. How do you persuade someone to get more involved in a good cause? Let's say childhood cancer research.

This is a personal cause for me, and I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about what motivates folks to donate to causes like this one. I don't have any grand conclusion here. I really wish I did, but one of the persuasive dilemmas that 2, 500 years ago, Came up for me a lot and others a lot who work in this childhood cancer space.

You could emphasize the credibility of the organization doing the research or its ethos. You could show the scale of the problem to the audience, how many kids get specific cancers every year, or conversely, show the impact of donations, [00:01:00] how X amount of money has led to Y advancements in childhood cancer treatments.

Or you could, and many organizations take this route, Appeal to the audience's emotions, their fear, their sadness, their anger at a world in which a kid can get cancer, or their hope that things can get better. When they, the audience, see images of kids who are sick, who have undergone radiation, of families who have lost a child to cancer, maybe that will stand out from the torrent of messages we all get, and motivate them to donate money, Or time to a good cause.

Today's guest on when we disagree is Jay Daniels from Athens, Georgia. Jay, tell us an argument story. 

Jay Daniels: Uh, so this happened about a few years ago. I'd say about three, I was dating this one girl and she was very strong minded. Respect her to death. But there was one thing we didn't agree on, uh, that was our views on the whole cancel culture thing.

Me personally, I [00:02:00] believe it's a little toxic in the way it is formed. Back then, I understand what it was meant for, holding people accountable, holding people responsible for their actions and words, but she disagrees on how it is used today. 

Michael Lee: Spell out for me, just so we can get our terms straight, because there's so much discourse about cancel culture.

In the media and on social media. What is cancel culture to you? In other words, when you were arguing about cancel culture, what were you arguing about? 

Jay Daniels: We were arguing about just the way it's used. I personally believe you can use cancel culture in a positive light. Like, uh, and forgive me if this brings up any bad memories with people, but Bill Cosby, I believe he fully deserves cancel culture.

Uh, In more recent news, P Diddy, I believe he deserves the cancel culture and just a few other things. She, on the other hand, believed in smaller things [00:03:00] like the whole controversy with uh, the Land O Lakes and the native on the box. Which I thought was ironic, you know, they kicked the native, but And the Mrs.

Buttersworth bottle and Aunt Jemima. I believe those two things shouldn't have been cancelled. I believe the object's being cancelled. Yes, they do have some bad history, but they are an iconic brand. 

Michael Lee: And so, in these two instances, it sounds like, do you have a broad agreement with You're a former girlfriend, about the utility of cancellation in some spaces, you just disagree about who and when should be canceled, or is there a more fundamental disagreement about free speech here?

Jay Daniels: I believe there's, yes and no. I believe that cancel culture, we both can agree that it can be necessary to help like, keep the public safe and like, actually keep people informed about Who they're looking up to because like with celebrities we do [00:04:00] idolize them and put them on a pedestal So having that large of a following with whatever they say can be a bit dangerous, but in the principle, I think Canceling objects like butter, syrup Goya, the seasoning that got canceled And a few other things but for the freedom of speech part I do respect her and her choices to disagree on some things, but I feel like she's taking things to a bit of an extreme.

Michael Lee: What does cancellation mean to you and what does cancellation mean to her? And I ask this because I really struggle with the term. Specifically, it's a very slippery term. In other words, if I, as an individual, unfollow somebody because I don't like them, it's not like I've engaged in cancellation because I don't have that kind of a power.

I'm just turning my attention somewhere else. If Bill Cosby, for instance, gets quote unquote cancelled, it's in part a cultural reaction to his [00:05:00] crimes, but it's also because he went to jail, right? Or George should have gone to jail. And the same is true, perhaps, for Diddy, the same is true for the Weinsteins of the world, and so forth.

So there's a kind of legal arm. of cancellation. And then of course, there's the broader cultural aspect of, let's say there's a quote unquote Karen has a video and then we, some folks on the internet, some sleuths figure out where this Karen works. And then that company fires Karen for her actions as a private citizen.

to me, also a completely different part of this. So back to the central question. What are you talking about when you talk about cancellation? And what was your former partner talking about when she talked about cancellation? 

Jay Daniels: And you hit on both subjects pretty well. I'm more talking about the legal aspect about the crimes people do and they hold and they should be held accountable.

While she's more talking about like the Karen that's blabbing about something that may be ignorant, but not necessarily. Bad in their [00:06:00] situation just depending on their context Uh, I believe both can be good. Uh, just do to a certain extent but like with all good things only in quantities If we just go around canceling everything Life's not going to be enjoyable.

Of course, we're going to disagree with things but What about the things we do agree with are we a bad person just for? liking something 

Michael Lee: If she was here, would she, how would she characterize her position? Would she characterize her position as saying We need to cancel more often than we don't or that even if we over correct a little bit that's good To compensate for many past injustices that went unpunished or would she say we need to go around cancelling everything?

Jay Daniels: Uh, honestly Uh, I still talk to her to this day because good friend of mine I actually asked her if I could talk about this before [00:07:00] we came on here just full respects to her Awesome, because i'm a little scared of her. Um You She's grown a lot since that day and she says, um, we can more correct things we've done in the past, but we should also keep an open mind about context, situation, what led up to this point.

Um, but back then I would say she would go around just canceling everything. 

Michael Lee: Or endorsing it, right? Because as one individual, she can only choose to give her attention or not to give her attention. The same is true of you and I. And then the question is, do you support a broader cultural movement of quote unquote cancellation?

Um, what's, what's fascinating too is that there seems like there's obviously some blowback to cancellation. But there are many folks, and I can think of several comedians off the top of my head, who were quote unquote canceled. And have actually quite benefited from it. Benefited from being canceled and are now playing larger, more sold out arenas who have greater name [00:08:00] recognition, who have become, um, cause celeb in certain political circles because they were the targets of so called cancellation.

So it seems to me too, that there, there's a bit of overblowing of the power of cancellation when in fact, many people who were so called canceled have actually gotten a greater platform.

Jay Daniels: Yes, I would agree with that. Uh, some comedians like Matt Rife, like when he was almost canceled, I saw his career blow up a little more. I've seen a more stage presence because of him. Uh. I wouldn't say Louis C. K. benefited from that, but I do see him expanding his portfolio from just stand up comedy to more acting to, uh, I think he was trying to go into music for a little bit, but That's not my point.

Michael Lee: Was this dispute, let's talk about why this dispute has stuck with you. It sounds like it's possible for two [00:09:00] reasons. One, it's a dispute that stuck with many of us, perhaps all of us, because it's such a prominent part of the culture. And it's a kind of choice about attention and broader endorsements that we all have to make.

But then secondly, it's an important flashpoint in your relationship. So talk a bit about why you think this particular disagreement with your former girlfriend has stuck with you. 

Jay Daniels: Well, I believe this disagreement actually showed a bit of change for me. Uh, I'm still, you know, You know growing up still in my 20s, uh, and it kind of stuck with me because I realized Okay, I understand you may not agree with your partner on everything But if you want a long lasting relationship, you have to agree upon some things Uh, and this just kind of stuck with me.

I mean the heartbreak it hurt. Of course it hurt, but I do Actually feel grateful for like her time and everything because this showed me Me more about me this showed me the ways I need to grow [00:10:00] as a person and it just showed me Hey, you may like this one person, but come on, let's be real. This wouldn't last for more than Past three years.

Michael Lee: There's an idea in rhetoric and philosophy called a perspective by incongruity, which is where you can learn more about an object or by looking at the opposite of that object. In other words, we learn from that kind of attention. You think that you need to study a text, let's say, the Bible or the Constitution, and then you can actually learn so much more about that text than by reading its opposite, opposite conclusions.

The same is true of relationships. It sounds like you're saying that, of course, you can learn about how you feel by thinking about how you feel and reading articles that confirm how you already feel. Or, you could engage with somebody who you know and love very well and figure out to what extent you feel the way you feel.

How far are you willing to go for your ideas? And what does [00:11:00] that say about you? 

Jay Daniels: This says about me that, hey, like I've made a mistake and I may not know what to do. I really need to put myself out there more. I need to actually be open minded to different ideas, philosophies and whatnot, because I know I can be a bit arrogant sometimes when it comes to certain things.

But for me, I think actually looking at someone instead of looking at the opposite. Can be a lot more beneficial because it's easy to say I don't want this. I don't want this I don't want that But do we actually know what we truly want in a person until we're face to face? Or not even just with a person with a thing with an idea with a concept 

Michael Lee: Did you learn more about what you want by engaging in this dispute over cancel culture?

Jay Daniels: Yes, I did. I did. I learned that Sometimes I need to be a little more critical about You [00:12:00] The I guess i'm gonna idols and I put that in quotes that I hold because I could love something to death But I could also be blinded by that same thing. Um It used to be a really big Kanye fan. Okay. Um until I started looking more into his Personal life and it just started leaking into his music and I just couldn't Feel the same way like, um, I know for my parents a same situation would be like R.

Kelly. 

Michael Lee: Yeah, Michael Jackson 

Jay Daniels: Yeah, Michael Jackson. Um a bunch of famous names Uh that seem really great on stage and on camera, but once you actually look at their popular life I'm, sorry personal life They start getting a really bad reputation. 

Michael Lee: That's right. And then So, it sounds like, at least in these instances, you've really engaged the broader person [00:13:00] that Akonye and R.

Kelly of Michael Jackson are, separate from their art, and then have found yourself increasingly uncomfortable listening to their art, experiencing their art, endorsing their art. And then on the, on the, on the other hand, you're also saying that perhaps we as individuals cancel too much. Yes. 

Jay Daniels: Yes. 

Michael Lee: How do you square those two?

Jay Daniels: I square those two is Honestly, I'm still figuring out myself. I'm in the in between. I like the artist, but maybe not the art. Or, sorry, I have that backward. I like the art, but not the artist. There becomes a certain point to where you can't separate those two. And it's, you're falling blindly, honestly, at this point.

You can enjoy the art. Like, I used to get down to, like, bump and grind. But as I get older and stuff, it [00:14:00] kind of feels wrong. Especially, like, knowing what he's did and the whole kind of When was it? Like, the whole court case with him. It's not important, but You see more of that into their art. So honestly squaring away if it's something small like They had a public meltdown and stuff and they just kind of lost their mind.

Okay. Yeah team z they can be ruthless sure But once they're actually doing something that's like federally wrong morally wrong um You can't separate that like, um What's that actor's name? Um He shot the dude on set. Alec 

Michael Lee: Baldwin. 

Jay Daniels: Alec Baldwin, yes. I don't believe he deserves to be cancelled because that was an accident.

The firearm went off and it was actually loaded. He shouldn't be cancelled for that. Yes, technically, he [00:15:00] did put a man down. But at the same time, it wasn't his intention to actually kill a man. 

Michael Lee: Right, we've all, we're all flawed in some way, shape, or form, and so if you keep looking very hard for, let's say, a sinner's sins, then we're each going to find something in one another that's cancelable.

Exactly. You said something that really struck me, and maybe we'll close on this point, which is, at some point, you can't separate the artist and the art. And you learn this in conflict with a person. Previous girlfriend. Yes. What is that point for you? And I realize very much that you're still feeling this out At what point this is and and as all we are yes, and as I currently am but what point is that for you?

You've said a little bit like for instance if they've committed consistent federal crimes or done something that's hideous and monstrous over a number of years I think those are pretty, that's a pretty good standard. Is there [00:16:00] anything south of that? Other points at which you can't separate the artist from the art?

Jay Daniels: Uh, other points? Yes, there's multiple things. Uh, of course, federally crime. That's always bad. Uh, moral crimes and just, honestly, things I'd like to consider human crimes. Like, things. you can do in your daily life that have some situation that you can apply to them. Like sleeping with your best friend's mom.

That's obviously a big no. Uh, talking bad about, uh, I don't know if you're married, but your best man's wife, you wouldn't speak ill on her name. I believe we should hold these artists the same standards we hold ourselves. I believe we shouldn't just let them off just because, you know, Oh, they made this or, Oh, they're doing this and this for charity.

I believe they should be held responsible like we hold each other responsible. They are still [00:17:00] part of the human masses like we are. 

Michael Lee: Jay, thank you very much for being on When We Disagree. Thank you. When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw.

Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.