Karissa has devoted her career to building bridges across political divides. In this line of work, disagreement is inevitable, and sometimes people disagree about how to have a healthy dialogue.
Tell us your argument stories!
Karissa has devoted her career to building bridges across political divides. In this line of work, disagreement is inevitable, and sometimes people disagree about how to have a healthy dialogue.
Tell us your argument stories!
Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Let's say you want to persuade your friend who still lives in your hometown to move to a new city, like Chicago. What tactics would you use? You could appeal to their emotions, how bad they feel, how stuck they feel, how bored they feel in whatever podunk town they live in, or how great it will feel to experience the social electricity of a city like Chicago.
You could appeal to credibility, noting how much you like Chicago, or how monster, or indeed, or some job site Thanks. Really great things happen in Chicago, or you could use what Aristotle called logos or appeals to reason. It's called logos, but it doesn't just mean logic. It means the structure of the argument and its evidence as well.
This is where you talk about specific employment opportunities in Chicago, industries in Chicago, salary data. Housing [00:01:00] data, you use analogies and metaphors to help enhance your case. In the end, arguments from Logos use evidence and a soundly reasoned argument to supply someone the information they need to make a tough call.
Today's guest is Carissa Raskin, director of coalition engagement for the Listen First project, which serves as the backbone for the bridging movement, which aims to build cohesion in our country. Carissa, tell us an argument story.
Karissa Raskin: Thanks so much, Mike. Uh, happy to be here. So the argument story I'm going to share is actually an argument with myself in some ways.
Um, it is a, the story a little bit about how I came into this bridging movement, which honestly I was not very familiar with before I entered the field. Uh, someone actually sent me the job description for becoming the coalition, uh, engagement [00:02:00] director and I said, what? You want me to build bridges? I didn't go to architecture school.
What are you talking about? Uh, and then obviously I did a little bit of digging and said, oh, this actually looks quite interesting and perfect for me. But then I questioned myself because. I had been very much on the more progressive liberal end of things growing up and certainly within my young adult life.
Um, you know, aligning very, very closely with the That side of the political spectrum and in a lot of the values and beliefs that I had, and I just wondered in reading the description of what it means to bridge divides and listen and have understanding and give space for the conversation across differences, particularly around political ideology.
I started to [00:03:00] question myself and say, Well, is this going to make me change who I am? Is this going to make me, um, forsake the values that I have held so true to? And I questioned, will I end up in some ways being brainwashed even to, uh, forego, I guess the, the things that. I had held on to and of course I grappled with the questions of cognitive dissonance and you know, do I believe what I believe just because I believed it for so long and anyway, it was it was a really challenging internal dilemma for me because in theory.
I fully believe in acknowledging and recognizing difference of opinions. I was a social scientist, so I valued the, you know, perspectives of others and listening to others, but then it came to myself. And thinking that I may have [00:04:00] to, um, compromise my own values and beliefs. So I asked friends. I said, hey guys, you know, check in with me in three months after I started this job and I'm, you know, kind of towing the line between left and right and making space for all manners of voices and thoughts.
Ask me about, you know, some questions that you know how I would answer them today. Check in to see if I have been brainwashed or if I, you know, have lost my way or somehow been corrupted to the other side. Um, and it was, yeah, it was a really interesting and honestly scary experience in the beginning to think I might lose myself.
By virtue of trying to open my mind to others.
Michael Lee: I want to make sure that I understand both sides of the debate with yourself, but tell us briefly if you can, in a nutshell, what the bridging movement is before we get into both sides.
Karissa Raskin: Sure. So the [00:05:00] bridging movement is really about being able to recognize that people of different perspectives are, should be And are much more than the labels, which often get ascribed to them and bridging is about holding space and understanding through listening to give individuals the opportunity to share their perspectives.
It's not about saying that we need to agree on everything. It's not about saying that disagreement or differences of opinion is bad. It's about looking at the way in which we're relating to each other or choosing to shut each other out because of our differences of opinion and saying, That isn't helping that isn't helping us as individuals.
It's not helping our country. It's dividing us in ways that, you know, have created more isolation and fragmentation on our social fabric than we've ever experienced. And [00:06:00] it's really about, um, bridging is really about. Allowing for those disagreements and differences of opinion to exist while still valuing the person behind them and getting to the point where we can uncover some of the values and experiences that cause us to think the way we think.
And finding that there's actually a lot more common ground than we may have believed.
Michael Lee: And this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart. This show, When We Disagree, is obviously participating in this space in the sense that we explore the role of disagreement and the power of disagreement in all of our lives, one story at a time, regardless of topic, relationship, or context.
I'm curious, though, how you spell out the arguments on both sides. So if I could characterize it, and then I'd like for you to present the best case of both sides, if you could, the kind of debate you had with yourself on the one side, you have, you say, you grew up on the left [00:07:00] side of things as a liberal.
And so From that point of view, you think that you should pursue your agenda. The values you think would guide the country the best, regardless of the outcome. In other words, you have to fight for what you think is right. And then on the other side, we have this value of listening to the other side of engagement, of staying in relationship, of believing that I am my brother or sister or fellow citizens keeper.
And it all takes this kind of village. And so we have to stay in relationship with one another. And that requires listening to one another. The other side saying, then, well, if you listen to them, you're essentially giving them a platform or providing acceptance for their ideas and therefore endorsing them just by saying, Giving, dignifying them with your presence and round and around and around we go.
What are the other kinds of arguments that you were having in your head on both sides of this question?
Karissa Raskin: Well, Mike, you just totally articulated so well what I was experiencing. But yeah, I mean, I, I questioned myself. [00:08:00] I mean, very much what you shared about the, am I giving oxygen to voices that, or voices and or opinions.
That, you know, earlier in my days, I would have said don't deserve any more oxygen. They have had all the oxygen in the world and don't need any more space. And in fact, it's the voices of people who have been marginalized and pushed down and either oppressed, repressed, you know, insert your adjective here regarding, you know, quieting, um, that I want to give the oxygen to.
And that very much, you know, follows a more, um, Social justice, if you will, framework and you know, the, as we all know, DEI and things of that nature are really hot topics here, but I, I was concerned that I was going to legitimize something which I had seen and been kind of [00:09:00] programmed to believe. doesn't need any more legitimacy.
They've had all the platform they need. So am I actually countering all of the work that I had done thus far in, in my other roles and positions prior to this movement's job? Am I compromising what I've done or forsaking it? Um, and I also really wondered, would I be able to get along with anybody who either identified or labeled themselves as more?
Conservative. Um, would I be comfortable being in spaces with individuals whom I knew or perceived to know that their opinions were so drastically different than my own, that I would have, um, would I be able to grapple with [00:10:00] the, well, how could you possibly think that going on in the back of my head as I'm trying to build a relationship?
And I can tell you, Mike, that that question about my ability to build relationships with people different than my own is the probably the greatest lesson that I have learned in this past, you know, year of being involved in the movement. Because I am not only capable of building those relationships, but it is those relationships that have made me a better person.
Michael Lee: Say more about that if you would. I'm, I'm super interested to hear how, how you think you've become a better person in relationships with people who believe things that are fundamentally different from and contrary to your own values.
Karissa Raskin: Absolutely. Because what the experience of befriending, working with, collaborating with people who hold values and views different than my own is [00:11:00] that I am able to separate the opinions and positions that individuals hold from the human being that they are.
And I'm able to better recognize that we are all. Influenced by the personal lived experiences that we have and the environments in which we grew up. None of us are born programmed. Red or blue or on one side of the position or the other. And so we all start with a clean slate and all our influenced
Michael Lee: John Locke,
Karissa Raskin: but we're all human.
We're all human. And we all have common things that we, as humans identify with share love. And, and the media is so great at highlighting the things. That [00:12:00] we disagree on and that's where political campaigns make a lot of money and it's where we are able to, you know, push each other to one side or the other.
Um, but there are so many more things that we have in common and can find common ground on. And the ability to recognize that, that I didn't need to be angry, or afraid, or frustrated, or, you know, anxious. About what I perceive to be half of the population and their inability to see things the way that was the quote, unquote, right way to see them.
That just kind of diffused because it wasn't about them being. Like incapable in a way it was that they [00:13:00] probably had the same fears that I had and we just hadn't sat down to have a conversation yet and realize that there's a lot more in common than our stereotyped lens.
Michael Lee: It does. Let's be specific on a few in a few ways. One, you had this concern coming into this job and into this bridging movement about platforming or giving oxygen to a group of folks that you disagreed with. And second, you had concerns about whether you could frankly coexist in the same space. In other words, can you hang out in the same room with somebody who believes whatever differently that you believe?
Can you be specific? How did you or how have you platformed or give oxygen to or engaged the other side? And then second, is there a relationship or a moment in which you thought, well, a, this is working a lot better than I thought it would. And B, I think I'm actually becoming a better person through this.[00:14:00]
Karissa Raskin: Yeah, sure. Um, so in terms of the platforming, uh, that I was really concerned about, what I've actually found is that I have taken a different approach to platforming in general. It's not so much that I now. Platform, the particular issues that I feel, um, most strongly about one way or the other. And, and let me just clarify my perspectives and my values and my orientation as a, a liberal, um, haven't changed.
My viewpoints on specific topics haven't changed from a platforming perspective. I think what I have realized is that my tactics of, um, Being more of an advocate and potentially not. [00:15:00] I was never extremely like vocal or like, you know, standing out and, uh, with a megaphone or anything, but my, um, the way in which I communicate my values.
are much more about listening first and then sharing as a response to others what I think. It's not trying to convince or shove my ideas at somebody else as being the right thing and they just have to get it because it's the only way that somebody should think about something. So I think my answer to your question about platforming is I don't necessarily Try to tip the scales one way or the other.
It's just an open platform for people to be able to share their opinions.
Michael Lee: Gotcha. And then is there a specific moment either in a, in a relationship or at an event where you began to think, Hey, this is really working better than I thought it would interpersonally and be started to chart some growth in yourself.[00:16:00]
Karissa Raskin: Yeah. And it's funny. It's actually, um, I would say the relationship that's made the greatest impact on me is that with the CEO of Listen First Project, um, Pierce Godwin, who is, you know, seen as one of the, uh, leaders, if not the leader of the Bridging Divides movement, um, Pierce and I are the only two people who work at Listen First, and I can recall in my interview for this position, a fear and anxiety that was present just knowing this That he leans conservative and that he used to work more aligned in the Republican Party.
And those are the values in which he stood for and thinking, how am I going to go work for a boss who fundamentally probably disagrees on just about every significant value driven point that there is. So that was the fear going in. And then I can recall within two weeks of being on the job, we were at a steering committee retreat, sitting on the rooftop of someone's [00:17:00] apartment, um, with a large cohort of people late at night after an event.
And we were just sitting, talking, laughing, swapping stories. Um, we actually got relatively deep into like personal stories of things we'd experienced in our life. And I just remember thinking, I can't believe that I was so afraid that this person would be unapproachable, not relatable, somebody that I would constantly feel uncomfortable with.
And here I am sitting next to someone who is very quickly becoming one of my very best friends. How interesting is that? And that type of relationship within my bridging movement colleagues and cohort is, you know, that type of relationship exists tenfold now. I have countless examples of people whom I would have previously thought I could never really talk with them.
Who I consider close friends now.
Michael Lee: It sounds like the two of [00:18:00] you come into this space, you and the CEO, with a really strong common commitment to civility, to an exchange of values, to dialogue across difference, to healthy disagreement, even to diagnosing the country's problems of polarization. Even if you disagree on policy issues, let's say taxation or the border or something, you begin with a really broad base of agreement.
Both in terms of your ideology and your actions because you're working in the space. That seems to me to be a place where it's, it's easier to come together and form relationships across disagreements when there's an easy and obvious points of connection. Have there been other relationships where there, it's more challenging across the board where you have not only disagreements of perspective, but disagreements of fact.
Disagreements about even the problems the country is facing. In other words, places where your core commitments are even more challenged, and then that relationship sprouting despite those disagreements. [00:19:00]
Karissa Raskin: You know, what I have found, and certainly, yes, those would be much more challenging situations to find opportunity for conversation.
But what I have found is No matter the person, no matter how different you appear to be, there will always be something that you can find that is aligned. Always. Whether it is a love for your parents, whether it is a desire to, um, Have better education for kids, whether it is, you know, an enjoyment of going outside and breathing fresh air and taking your dog for a walk.
There is always something that fundamentally we can find to agree on. And therefore, I think just being open to finding those things. no matter how insignificant they may seem and using that as the starting place to build [00:20:00] from that, that I think is the way forward for our country.
Michael Lee: As we close, I've been listening intently to the values you've been expressing and trying to figure out a kind of mantra or motto or a way forward.
And it seems to me that there are several core commitments that you're sharing in this story. I'd like to share them back to you and see if you agree or disagree with this characterization and what you would add. And so, first, listen to people. Second, exposure works. Specifically, exposure moderates our ideas.
Maybe even our policy ideas, but certainly our fear of the other side. Third, we are all flawed humans. And fourth, we have more in common than we think.
Karissa Raskin: Yeah, I think those are, are all excellent. And I think the, the order of them [00:21:00] is key because I, before you share your own ideas and perspectives, the ability to listen to somebody else.
And the only thing I would add there is listen. with curiosity. Listen like you actually want to try to understand where the other person is coming from and check yourself while listening to see am I self narrating as this person is talking saying oh well that isn't possibly true or oh well I already know what they're gonna say but truly opening your mind and listening with curiosity so that you can hear those deeper values and then when you share your own perspectives share them from Place of your experience, not from the perception of what you think the other side would react to or what you've heard.
Um, it, it's when we fall into those traps of stereotyping, even ourselves [00:22:00] that we don't allow for that natural bridging to happen.
Michael Lee: Carissa, thank you so much for being on When we disagree.
Karissa Raskin: Thank you so much, Mike. It was a pleasure.
Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.