Politics and Friendship

Jonny's friend has very different - and objectionable - ideas about politics and people. 

Tell us your argument stories!

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Transcript

Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. How do you argue? When disagreement happens, what strategies and tactics do you typically use? Researchers have been answering these and similar questions for decades. The most influential measure of our conflict styles came from two professors.

Kenneth Thomas and Ralph Kilman. The Thomas Kilman conflict mode instrument identifies five conflict styles that vary widely in assertiveness and cooperativeness. One. The competing style views arguments as zero sum. You win or you lose. Two. The avoidance style finds conflict distressing and sidesteps arguments.

Three. The accommodating style is deferent and wants to appear carefree. Four. The compromising style wants to meet in the middle. Five. The collaborative style. Style wants to understand the other side, both the [00:01:00] content of their arguments, as well as how they feel. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston.

Today's guest is Johnny from New Jersey. Johnny, tell us an argument story. 

Jonny Wall: Well, hello, thank you for having me. So my argument story is, uh, between two of my close friends. It's important though, this wasn't face to face, it was over, um, Xbox, so it was entirely just verbal. Um, and this was between, let's call him Ant, um, my one friend Ant, we were on the similar side.

And my other friend, we'll say Justin, was on the other. Started as, you know, we were just having fun talking to each other. Um, but background is important. Me and Justin, um, are very close friends. I think we met maybe 15 years ago. Since then we've bonded all the time. We have similar interests, like the same games, like the same everything.

Except, we differ heavily on political opinions. So Justin tends to be over to the right a lot more. The specific argument, um, [00:02:00] we were talking about, um, Same sex marriages, same sex parents. Me and aunt were originally, it was, um, a very normal argument, like a real one. We were thinking of each other's sides, trying to see each other's viewpoints.

Um, but eventually through like many minutes of us talking, jaw jacking back and forth, the argument somehow got so absurd to, it came down to this. If you were to raise a child, a baby. A toddler, whatever it be, if that room was blue or pink, would it affect the child's sexuality? Same, like, similar to same sex, would having the same sex parents, that was the original argument, would that, would that alter your childhood?

Would it be different? Me and Ann argued heavily, no, it wouldn't, wouldn't change a thing. Um, and then Justin argued, absolutely. Uh, it would change the thing. And then having a pink room would push you towards more feminine values and having a blue room would point you towards more male values. So me and Ann had a genuine conversation with him.

I mean, Justin [00:03:00] is one of my close friends, so, um, I don't want to, you know, blast him or anything like that. So it was really, we were trying to get him to understand, you know, that really doesn't make sense. Um, that's kind of your Your environment growing up, people told you that colors had a, um, a gender whatsoever.

Um, some sort of, uh, gender connotation towards colors. Whereas me and Amber like, you know, that's not true at all. And I'd love for you when you have a kid raised in a pink room and see what happens. That's just not how, not how, um, things develop. But he was heavily in that stance. And even then, I mean, this was about maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago.

I just remember feeling, I don't know the word, I don't know if it's hopelessness, but I was disappointed in him because so we are really close and although we differ on political differences, like I'm always willing to push those to the sides, um, especially recently we had a deep conversation about his values and things like that.

And I'm, and I try to understand him, whereas, [00:04:00] um, I think he's quite the opposite. I think he's set in his ways. And in that argument, I realized some people. You just can't convince if some people believe one thing like that, having a pink room will make you a little bit more feminine or having same sex parents will affect your, um, affect your childhood growing up.

Um, some people, if they believe that that will affect it, they won't change their mind until maybe they go through a personal experience. Um, whereas me and Ant were on the other side where. That's just conjecture. That's, um, your environment, how you were raised, and it's important to think outside of that and challenge yourself in different ways.

Michael Lee: Wow. So to set the scene, it's sort of two on one in this specific argument and describe the kind of tenor or tone of the argument. You said it began as quote, a normal argument and it sounds like it escalated. Yeah. 

Jonny Wall: So it was. It was real normal. Um, we were just like discussing a normal conversation, but as, as it mounted and me and Ant [00:05:00] realized, okay, well he's now he, instead of a conversation, it became a little defensive where we were like, well, why would you think that pink would equate to, would make someone grow up and want to, you know, be feminine.

And his response to that was, um, like it wasn't very substantial at all. It would just be, oh, well, you know, pink is a girl color or things like that. So as that mounted, it turned absurd. It was like, well, what about a yellow room? What would happen to turn yellow room? Would you be, you know, more likely to be.

I don't know. More annoying. Um, it was just funny how, and it turned into like, it got pretty hostile and that we ended up just going to bed after that. Everybody just got off and we, we stopped talking about it. We haven't brought it up since. Um, but it was just a very interesting argument. Um, and it was definitely an argument towards the end.

First, the conversation, and then it shifted. As we learned, we can't see eye to eye on the situation. Instead of a conversation, it turned into an argument. 

Michael Lee: Are you playing a game simultaneously? We were, and then 

Jonny Wall: we stopped, um, I can't remember. It was [00:06:00] maybe Call of Duty or something like that. We were playing for a little bit, and then the conversation got so At one point, it was very insightful, and we were discussing things.

It was very nice, but as it turned absurd, we stopped playing, and it was just a We were trying to get whatever we wanted to say out. And obviously, the two on one situation didn't help, and And knowing him, he's a very funny arguer. He likes to joke and rag on people. So that probably didn't help. Um, it's possible that Justin 

Michael Lee: felt ganged up on 

Jonny Wall: perhaps.

Yeah, I would assume so. Um, that might be true, but I mean, we've had, I've had similar conversations with him. I mean, Again, he is one of my closest friends, so it's hard to have one fundamental thing you disagree on, such as politics, but I try and talk to him all the time and try and get his view. I try and show him mine.

A lot of the times, he's not open to see mine, you know, which is fine. I can't, can't 

Michael Lee: force him to. You mentioned that in many cases, Times in these kinds of relationships where there's differences, you push those differences aside and perhaps focus on commonalities. So this is very much an exception and how you see your conflict style.

Jonny Wall: Yes. [00:07:00] Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, similar to, um, I mean, I'd say it's similar to my parents. They have similar right leaning values and I prefer to stay away from it. And we just don't talk about it. I mean, until there's a time where it's, um, super needed to discuss it. I'd rather just think about the things we do like, um, to talk about.

Michael Lee: Another thing you said really struck me too, which is that some people you can't convince. Do you feel that way? You felt that way in this relationship with Justin, it sounds like. 

Jonny Wall: Specifically this instance. I mean. It's tough. I think it goes hand in hand with again, how you were raised knowing Justin. And, um, I know he's had, he had a tough growing up.

He lost his parents when he was very young, recently lost his dad a couple of years ago. So a lot of his, um, role models, his guardians are gone and he's kind of left to his own devices. The leadership guidance he seeks out, whether that be, um, the podcasters he listens to, or the influencers he It takes as gospel.

I mean, that's up to him. Um, and also, I mean, [00:08:00] he is, uh, after he graduated high school, he isn't the most ambitious person. I mean, similar to me, I'm not very ambitious. I don't have dreams of changing the world or anything like that. But in saying that, I think he's kind of in his own bubble. That's what we've discussed before.

I tell him, I'm like, you know, when you're in your own bubble. You tend to distort things like confirmation bias. You tend to think things are true when they're not, whereas on the outside, you know, I'm more than open to admit, you know, whether it be problems with left leaning policies or, you know, hypocritical behaviors.

I have, I'm fine with admitting them. Um, but I think he, you know, being in a bubble. really makes you set in your ways. 

Michael Lee: And talk through how it makes you feel to be in a relationship with somebody who you think is unpersuadable on specific issues. Does it make you feel defeated or like there's these landmines that you have to avoid or, or what?

Jonny Wall: Landmines is a good way to describe it. Um, it seems like the best way to go about it [00:09:00] specifically in this situation. Is, you know, to him have a, an experience that proves that it's not right. You know, in a, in a similar light, his girlfriend is a, uh, has a transgender, um, brother who is now a woman. And he finds that very hard to believe.

So in that moment, I try and talk to him. He describes the situation to me. He's like, well, well, she's a boy, but she's a girl. Okay. I'm not sure. It was like, well, what does she say? She says she's a girl. Well, I guess she's a girl. That's all it is. And, um, so he just has trouble. Looking past things that he thinks are true, such as, you know, whether that be the colors thing or his thoughts on gender, if those are true, It's very tough to push him away.

And it's also tough. I mean, how much evidence can you give to those things that are entirely subjective, like the colors? I mean, can you go through a study to decide if colors really dictate, you know, feminine and masculine personalities? So, 

Michael Lee: uh, the whole culture seems to be sort of wrestling with how you bring people out from bubbles.

How do we safely encounter [00:10:00] folks who are different? How do folks that we encounter who are different change our worldview, or do we let them change our worldview? And then when you're in a relationship with somebody who you perceive to be moving further and further into their own echo chamber, what kinds of persuasive tactics can you employ?

And I don't want you to solve our cultural problems, but just speaking for, for your relationship with this one human being. Um, what do you think is any way forward if you feel like somebody can't be convinced? 

Jonny Wall: Well, one way I do it is, um, I try and point out to him common instances where his thinking is directly, you know, challenged.

For instance, he I don't want to say he's, um, homophobic or by any means. He's, I mean, years ago when he was younger, he was for sure that way. He's gotten a lot lighter. For instance, me and him, we like wrestling. We watch professional wrestling a lot. And that is inherently pretty, you know, it's guys in tight, sweaty.

They're wrestling. It's melodramatic. It's soap opera. I mean, in every sense of the word, it's, you know, it's not the most manly thing to watch. So when we watch together, sometimes I point out, it's [00:11:00] like, You know, you know, this is a little, uh, questionable as well, you know, the things we watch and, um, still learn into a lot of the games he plays.

There's a lot of left leaning things like that. A lot of, um, what instances one game has, you know, a prompt that says, make sure to put your storage in his or her house. And I know that bothered him. He said, no, why do we have pronouns in our games? It was like, well, pronouns are a, um, a grammatical thing.

You know, they, they work in English. It's a thing, you know, it's an English language thing, not a political thing. So in those instances, I try and point it out to him. And sometimes you can kind of see the gears turning and he's like, Oh, okay. Yeah, that, that is true. That doesn't make a lot of sense. But again, it's tough to have someone to challenge and, you know, either call themselves wrong or think about their own.

You know, challenge their thinking. 

Michael Lee: Your challenge is thinking and just as important, honestly, it sounds like you stay in relationship, you don't cut him out, you don't avoid him. Yeah. I mean, it's tough because 

Jonny Wall: yeah, he, um, since he lives in New Jersey where I, [00:12:00] where I used to live, um, I moved away about three years ago.

I don't keep many close ties with. Um, people that are there and you could argue there's people there that I should keep closer ties that aren't just in that do align with my political values, but it's, um, we've done each other for a long time. I know it was family. It was my family. And for me to. I have thought about it before.

Maybe I should, you know, in the height of the election, probably coming up here soon, we'll be getting into some conversations. There's times where I thought, God, maybe I just want to let this go and just, you know, but at the end of the day, I mean, I just think our I value our friendship war and the memories we have to just throw it away over, you know, questionable things.

There is a line I'll definitely draw. You know, when it comes to human rights things, we've already gotten there before where he discussed, um, you know, why, why do people get so upset about politics? And I've brought up this class. I brought up our, um, our communication class about how important debating is and evidence and being right with evidence.

And as discussed with him, I said, political issues, it's hard for us to just to [00:13:00] disagree because political issues are more turning into human rights issues. So it's two very different things where you could agree, you know, yes, you can agree. Chocolate is better than vanilla ice cream, but you can't agree that, you know, some people shouldn't have rights compared to others.

And in that situation, you know, I think I am opening his eyes very slowly, but I think it's going to take a while. That's for sure. I guess a lot of experiences. Um, a lot of talking to other people and getting out of that bubble, or importantly, out of that New Jersey bubble, I'm sure is very important, um, for him.

Johnny, thank you very 

Michael Lee: much for being on When We Disagree. 

Jonny Wall: Absolutely. Thanks for 

Michael Lee: having me. When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.