A mother and daughter argue about how parents should relate to their children.
Tell us your argument stories!
A mother and daughter argue about how parents should relate to their children.
Tell us your argument stories!
Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves.
It seems like a paradox. Arguments, even bad ones, heated ones, the ones that make us most uncomfortable, can deepen relationships. That is to say that fightings can sometimes bring us closer and clear the air. Can settle a vexing issue, can relieve relational tension. The conflicts that make us feel like we are close to a relational edge can actually put relationships on safer ground.
The big question is how do we know if the conflict we were about to have is the constructive kind or the destructive kind? I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the college of Charleston. Today's guest on when we disagree is Cally from Minneapolis., Cally tell us an argument story.
Cally: Okay, well, I'm gonna tell you a story about an argument I had with my mother. Um, it [00:01:00] was probably about, I'm gonna guess, 2011? Um, I had, I'd been divorced for a couple of years. I was having a hard time, uh, financially, emotionally. Things were a little rough and rocky for me and my daughter.
I was single parenting. Um, my mom and I met up quite often for breakfast. Um, I would do her hair, you know, we had a great relationship. We were really close, uh, but I would periodically feel like my mom was judging me. Um, I had always sort of felt like I didn't, you know, live my life in a conventional way.
Uh, like I, I felt like she hoped I would [00:02:00] live more conventionally just because she wanted my life to be easier, I think. Um, but I felt like at those, especially during that time, I felt like she was really pushing a lot of things that made me feel less supported by her and more judged. Um, and I think it was just her worry, but at the time it was hard for me.
To see that because I was struggling and some of the things I couldn't talk to her about Because you know, there was privacy with the issues my daughter and I were having My daughter was really struggling Her father had moved away. So just you know, things were you know We're rocky, like I said. Um, so one day we were out for breakfast and my mom said, [00:03:00] in what felt to me like a very passive way, she said, Um, so Callie, I have a question for you, and I was like, okay, mom.
She said, do you feel like you and Bella have like a mother-daughter relationship, or do you feel like your relationship is more like a friendship nowadays? Which to me felt like a judgment just because I know my mom and it felt to me like she thought, uh, I had crossed into this realm of like trying to be buddies with my daughter instead of her mom.
So I was immediately offended by her comment, and so I said, Okay, mom, I feel like I know where you're going with this, so I would prefer you think about it. If you're concerned about something, maybe ask me in a different way in the future. [00:04:00] Um, and I would prefer you not discuss this with anybody else, because I feel like in my family, everybody talks about each other, and everybody knows what's going on, and that always bugged me too.
So I kind of let it go at that point, but I was irritated with her, obviously. Um, and then about a week later, my daughter came home after spending the afternoon with my mom and said, grandma asked me the strangest question and it was the exact same question. So then I was. Pissed. So mad that I thought I can't even talk to her about this right now.
I have to wait. So I waited and waited and waited about a month and I started several times in that month. Um, but I waited and at about a month we were at breakfast again and I tried to calmly bring it up. But it escalated [00:05:00] and I said some stuff to her because I was angry like, Hey, have you ever been a single mom?
Have you ever had to? Parent alone, have you ever had to pay your mortgage by yourself? Have you ever had to have a full time job and take care of a family? Has your ex husband ever moved across the country away from your daughter? Like, I went at her and she started crying. Uh, so did I. And, and I felt like we were able to kind of talk through it.
Um, but I know I hurt her. And, you know, we let it go and we didn't bring it up again or talk about it again. But, you know, it still kind of haunts me.
Michael Lee: When you talk about this in the context of your overall relationship, did you feel like you had [00:06:00] a pretty consistent relationship in the sense that you talked a lot?
Did you have these kinds of conflicts a lot? Characterize the overall relationship you had with your mom as an adult.
Cally: Um, yeah, my mom and I talked regularly all the time. Um, no, we wouldn't have, like, this was, this was the biggest conflict I feel like I ever had with my mom. Um, besides maybe when I was a teenager and like, I didn't care.
You know what I mean? Like, I mean, it might've been hurting her, but for me, I was like, whatever. Um, no, I mean, you know, just like your relationship with the mom. Um, she would. Irritate me sometimes. Um, I would get frustrated with her sometimes, but my mom was wonderful. She was kind. She was caring. She was considerate.
Um, she would have done anything for me. Always, uh, But I did always feel [00:07:00] this little bit of judgment from her about how I led my life in, my mom was wonderful, but she could be very passive aggressive. And that's generally what would bug me. Cause I feel like I'm a really direct person. I don't feel like I'm passive aggressive.
And so when people do that to me, it just makes me angry right away. Anyway,
Michael Lee: you said that this was, There was a kind of, you thought, an implied judgment, kind of passive aggressive judgments that maybe they would show up in a stray comment or a question indirectly. Did that often apply to other parts of your unconventional life, as you put it, or was this specifically about parenting pretty consistently?
Cally: Oh no, in other parts of my life too. Um, you know, she was, she just would have preferred, I, I chose a different path [00:08:00] in life, like went to college and got a nine to five job. And, um, I became a hairdresser. I was, uh, definitely a little more, um, you know, I just, I, I was unconventional. I just made decisions in my life.
I moved to the city. My family all lived in the suburbs. I, you know, I was, I, I experimented with different things that other people didn't do. I was very involved in the queer community, always hanging around people who are gay or my, my parents didn't really understand that as well. So, you know, there were just like throughout my life, certainly I made a lot of choices that they had to adjust to.
Michael Lee: And then what is the, What is the, the judgment that you feared she was implying with, uh, whether you're a mother or a friend? [00:09:00] It seems like a really powerful distinction. Are you the mom or are you the friend? Talk through what, what you were hearing when she asked that question.
Cally: Um, I was hearing that she was implying, that I was acting like my daughter's friend and not her mother.
Um, which coming from someone like my mom, that's about the biggest insult you could give somebody. I just remember her talking about other moms when I was a kid who were like the friends to their kids instead of like the mom who set boundaries and rules, you know,
Michael Lee: that's what I was about to ask is meaning what's the like behavioral difference there a friend would.
Give constant encouragement, but not try to teach. A friend would not set boundaries. A friend would give a green light to any sort of misbehavior and say, [00:10:00] You be you, nobody can deny your truth. Whereas a mom would step in and say, No, this is, you're messing up here. And this is the way you want to behave and you should follow my lead.
Is that a fair characterization of what you were hearing?
Cally: Yes, that, that is definitely how I felt.
Michael Lee: And then how did, it sounded like it never sort of got settled, but at least the initial massive discomfort that you described, the kind of relational rupture ended, talk about the aftermath of, of how you came back.
Well,
Cally: I think at the end of the conversation, I said to her, um, you know, if you're questioning our relationship, you know, my daughter and my relationship and you know, what, how you perceive our relationship to be, I just want you to know that, you know, Bella came home from her interaction with you and immediately told me [00:11:00] about that conversation.
And was concerned about it as well, um, and felt the same kind of judgment or strangeness about it, even though she was just 16 years old. Um, so I think my mom, you know, in the moment, apologized for hurting me, but I, I don't know. I, I still think, I still think my mom thought she was right in that situation.
Um, you know, she was, she worried all the time. I just think that, uh, we moved on just because in our family, a lot of stuff started happening and difficult things. And we just kind of moved on from it. We never circled back to it, but our relationship was great. Um, I don't think it impacted. Our [00:12:00] relationship, my mom reached out to me a lot for help with a lot of different things.
I reached out to her Asking for help. So I I really think our relationship was okay
Michael Lee: Yeah,
Cally: I really do
Michael Lee: so there was a lot of love between you despite this at the top of the episode I was talking about conflicts deepening Relationships, this doesn't necessarily sound like an example of that. It sounds like something you survived
Cally: Yeah, that's how it felt to me.
Um, you know, it's hard. My mom's no longer alive, so I can't, I can't ask her about it, and I think sometimes that, I mean, I think that's why this conflict holds on to me, because I feel like at this point in my life, I've grown so much that I would talk to her about it. And it's a bummer that I can't,
Michael Lee: you know, before her passing, was this a conflict you thought about [00:13:00] or has it accelerated since she since she died?
Cally: Uh,
it's a good question. I think I did think about it. But I think my life was so much more tumultuous that I didn't have the bandwidth. So, I think I have thought about it more since she passed away. But, on that note, I feel like it's helped me to think about my conversations with my adult children differently.
Because of how That conversation made me feel, and I don't want them to ever feel that way. Which is impossible, I know, um, but I work really hard at the language I use with them so they don't feel like I'm judging them [00:14:00] or I'm disappointed. Because I think worry can sound that way. To a kid, even if your kid is grown, you know what I mean?
So.
Michael Lee: Cally , thank you so much for being on when we disagree.
Cally: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Michael Lee: When we disagree is recorded at the college of Charleston with creator and host, Michael Lee recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunze and Lance Laidlaw reach out to us at, when we disagree at gmail. com.