Hide and Seek

A conflict during a game divides two sisters. 

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Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves.

Disagreements can be distinct events, arguments we have while loading the dishwasher or at Thanksgiving dinner. Or they can take place over multiple days. When a fight feels settled, people sleep on it, and then pick right back up the next time they see each other. Some disputes are never ending, the one big fight that couples and best friends have again and again and again.

This podcast is about the role disagreements play in our lives, one story at a time. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. Today's guest is Jenny Lee Montgomery. a social media manager from South Carolina. Jenny, tell us an argument story.

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah. So when I think in my life, the times that I've had arguments or [00:01:00] disagreements, one story really sticks out to me. Um, I was a young kid about six years old and an important thing you should know about me is that I'm a preacher's kid. Um, and so from the time of six, almost for 20 years, a lot of my life was based around church.

And as a young kid, we spent Sunday through Saturday at church, all hours, the parents would stand around, the kids would run and play, and while many people may look at that and say, poor kid, if you know anything about an empty church, it was actually the playground for a lot of my childhood. And so, As our parents would stand around, talk business, um, just talk as adults, the kids would just go wild.

And so one of the moments I remember, um, one of our favorite games to play throughout the church is when all the lights were off, we would play this giant game of hide and go seek. And so I have a sister, she's three years older than me, and a lot of our friends were closer to her age, I was always the [00:02:00] youngest one, and so that meant that I was the one that was picked on.

And so during this time we were playing hide and go seek. I was always the first one found. I think it had to do with, um, me not being very great at hiding, but I had been scoping out the hiding spots all week for this big game of hide and go seek. And I finally found the pinnacle of hiding spots, this broom closet, way back in the children's ministry wing.

No one was ever going to find me. And so during this game, I went, I hid, and my sister was the one that was supposed to be finding, um, everyone. And so I heard her count down, ready or not, here I come, and I was in this closet. And so, about five minutes into the game, I hear footsteps getting closer and closer.

I was sure that she was going to swing open the door, find me. But instead, I hear the handle jiggle, something push against it. And she said, well, you're stuck now. And told me [00:03:00] that I was locked in the closet. So the game had reversed, where instead of me being found, I was now stuck, stuck in this closet.

And that was a fun game for her. And so what felt like an eternity for a 6 year old, it was probably 20 minutes at most. I sat in this closet. pouting that I was going to spend the rest of my life in this church closet. And so I remember sitting there, I would hear laughter on the other side of the door, and finally I had enough and just started kicking the door.

And to my surprise, with one kick, the door flew open. It was not actually locked. And so from that moment, that was a big argument, as you can imagine the conversation of me tattling to my parents. Um, complaining that my sister told me I was locked in this closet. The reality was that she just told me that, made me think it, and it was really my own beliefs that kept me in that closet.

So, that's the story for [00:04:00] me. Um, to this day, we have made up. We're friends now. We don't play hide and go seek anymore. Just, just due to keeping things friendly, but. That's a story and an argument that sticks out to me. 

Michael Lee: What did you say to her when you got out of the closet? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: If a six year old could cuss, I'm sure I would have, but I remember just crying.

Um, I was so scared and then also embarrassed at the same time that I thought I was locked in the closet. It turns out she was just messing with me. 

Michael Lee: Here you are, Preacher's Kid, PK as it were, a bad hider who thinks you've solved your bad hiding. You found the perfect hiding space, and then she tricks you to think, A, I found you, one, and, and two, now you're stuck in here for as long as I want you to be stuck in here.

You come out of the closet, firing with rage, let her have it, and then did it impact your relationship going forward? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: I think it impacted the trust. Um, but really, that situation taught me a lot about my own self. Um, even [00:05:00] more so just believing what my sister said. It really showed me how We can limit our own, um, abilities just based on what people tell us, um, and sitting in that and not challenging it for ourselves.

Michael Lee: Do you think that she intended that conclusion? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: As a nine year old, probably not. It's probably just the sheer, let's mess with her, but Just 

Michael Lee: sisterly or brotherly cruelty for cruelty's sake to see what this kid can handle, 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: right? 

Michael Lee: Is this a pattern in your relationship with your sister where she would kind of mess with you and you would have to make the best of it?

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Definitely as the younger sibling. I received a lot of the let's try this. Um, her and her friends would be bored. So let's just pick on. Jenny today, so it was definitely learning how to stand up for myself and not always chow or accept truth Just because someone says it 

Michael Lee: I was the only child so I've always kind of fascinated by sibling dynamics Jealous of sibling dynamics talk about your [00:06:00] argumentative contentiousness Levels between you and your sister.

Did you fight a lot? Not very much Pretty good friends, lots of practical jokes, anything. 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah, we definitely fought a lot, especially as two girls, um, similar in age. We would fight over clothing, friends. Um, if, since she was the older sister, she got to do more or go out more, um, than I was able to. So that was kind of a pattern throughout my childhood of saying, Why does she get to do that?

Why can't I be like that? Um, and kind of looking almost towards the future more, um, that she was setting versus like who I was at that age and what I was able to do. 

Michael Lee: Some of that stuff can sound like it's almost directed at your parents in a sense of, why does she get to do this and I don't get to do this?

Or why are our opportunities different? How did that impact your relationship with her and the fights you had or did not have? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah, um, definitely. It is interesting to think of it that way because those were decisions [00:07:00] and, um, choices that were made from our parents that kind of set that dynamic. So, um, a lot of it since she was the first child, a lot of it was them learning, figuring out boundaries, how to parent.

And for me, it kind of loosened up once I got to that age. Um, but it definitely set the thing of always looking for how was she being, um, disciplined or what opportunities were she given, which kind of created some jealousy and, um, comparison. 

Michael Lee: I can remember seeing what older siblings would do to younger siblings, people I was friends with, and think I don't know if I could ever trust this person again after they did something like that to you.

And as an only child, that's easy to say because I don't live with these folks, so. How did this, did it impact trust levels between you and your sister, this event or other events like it? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah, in a playful way it definitely made me keep my guard on, but if anything it gave me more confidence after I realized She didn't really have that much control of that [00:08:00] situation when I was locked in the closet.

I began to realize, Hey, maybe when she tells me that there is a witch hiding in the woods to scare me, maybe I could start questioning that reality or, um, just really making me more curious to what is actually within my control and what is being led on by someone else. 

Michael Lee: You felt, I'm hearing two things that are interesting.

One is the early Jenny. Thinking about this conflict with your sister where she quote unquote locked you in a closet but really didn't lock you in a closet and you came out of that feeling a lot of self efficacy, a lot of self control that she had tried to make you believe a reality that wasn't true and you had shown yourself that you could A, survive it and B, come through it more positively, but then as you get older, you're concerned about constraints.

Your folks are not letting you have the same opportunities in your mind that she's having and you don't feel like you have that kind of Self efficacy or that same kind of self control [00:09:00] that you did when you were younger You feel like it shifted at some point when you got into adolescence or teenage years?

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah, I really think um, whenever I left the home for college and kind of carved my own path I think As I mentioned earlier, being a preacher's kid is kind of a constraint all in itself of how people see you, how they limit you, um, and expectation that you have to maintain. But really being able to carve my own path, um, as a wide eyed freshman experiencing new ideas and new types of people, um, just living on my own, I think that was the shift.

And really coming full circle, it kind of showed me how our words can have an impact on others. When I'm arguing, sometimes I now think through a Another filter of is this really hurting someone else's own, um, confidence or ability and so really thinking of how our words can limit others, even if we just say them flippantly or playfully, um, that they really do have an impact on how we think that we're [00:10:00] capable and what we allow ourselves to do.

I 

Michael Lee: want to ask you for a moment about the label preacher's kid. Is that something that both you and your sister identify as? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yes, um, we never really had a choice otherwise, um, just showing up, you know, really living, eating, sleeping, breathing the church life. I think, looking back on it, we took two different approaches.

My sister really fell into the stereotypical preacher's kid, um, defiant, rebellious, went that route. I went the other stereotype of the good little church girl, um, let the old ladies pinch my cheeks every Sunday and give me hard candy. Um, but yeah, it's interesting how you can take that one identity and it really impacts not only how others see you but how you kind of start seeing yourself.

Michael Lee: I didn't know that defiance was one of the defining characteristics of the quote unquote typical preacher's kid. 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Oh yeah, there's definitely a lot of country songs about dating the preacher's kid. 

Michael Lee: How did [00:11:00] this difference, the defiant rebel versus the goody two shoes, how did that different performance of preacher's kid show up for you in conflict with you and your sister?

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Yeah, I think we both It was almost like a literal devil and angel on my parents shoulder. And so I think she would push the limits on how far she could push the boundary. And I would push the limits of, Alright, you can get out. You can get out from underneath us. Um, so really I think we compared each other because I would say, Well, at least I'm not doing that.

Um, if my sister was displaying negative behaviors. And then she would almost use my positive, um, to fuel. Well, I'll never be like that, or she's just too goody goody, um, to fuel some of those negative behaviors. 

Michael Lee: So, your, your parents in, in some ways are pawns in this game where you're saying, Well, she's out there pushing the envelope, so look how good I am by comparison, and she's kind of doing the reverse.

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Oh, yeah. [00:12:00] 

Michael Lee: Does it still show up for you now that you're adults between your describe the dynamics between you and your sister now? 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Well, ironically, my sister married a pastor, so she never really got away from that identity bubble. Um, I think as we've grown, I mean, even 20 years later, since that closet incident, um, definitely a lot of growth and just, you know, we're individuals.

The church, this identity can be part of our lives, but it's not that closet that keeps us locked in and that's all we can. Um, So I've definitely seen growth and, you know, you just interact differently as adults, even when it is a sibling, you can kind of get past some of the disagreements, some of the comparison, you still hold a little bit.

I think everyone holds on to that inner child a little bit. Um, so some of it, if we're getting in an argument about something more adult like, like politics or um, how she raises her kids versus how I would raise my future children, I start to hear that [00:13:00] little six year old say, wait, why would you say that?

That's not fair. Um, but definitely seeing growth and how that relationship has developed. 

Michael Lee: Jenny Lee Montgomery, thank you for coming on When We Disagree. 

Jennie Lee Montgomery: Thank you for having me.

Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.