How close should we be to our families?
Tell us your argument stories!
How close should we be to our families?
Tell us your argument stories!
What's in a Name?
Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves.
Disagreements can be constructive, destructive, or a little of both. When I was in graduate school, I was a little destructive. In grad school seminars, my assumption was that every other student arrived to the seminar with fully formed opinions about that week's readings, and I would counter argue as such.
One time, after a time where I was a little extra in seminar, my advisor pulled me aside, somebody I really respected, and said that other students were trying to sound out how they felt. About complicated issues in these seminars. And they didn't show up with fully formed or settled opinions. In other words, they learned through dialogue and I was shutting down that process.
I felt bad, but it was a really vital learning [00:01:00] experience. I'm Michael Lee, director of the civility initiative and professor of communication at the college of Charleston. Today's guest on When We Disagree is Laurel from Spartanburg, South Carolina. Laurel, tell us an argument story.
Loral: Yeah, so, recently, I would say last week, my boyfriend and I got into a little heated argument over FaceTime, obviously not the best place to have an argument, um, but we were talking about the tradition of naming your kids after, um, your father.
So it's usually, you know, if you have a first son, naming him after the dad, who's usually named after his dad and so on. So there's a senior and a junior, eventually a third and a fourth. And my idea is that that's outdated and very traditional, and I think it's silly in today's society. And I think that kind of hurt my boyfriend's feelings because, you know, his brother is a fourth, and it's very, you know, It's a very traditional idea in [00:02:00] his family, and so it was very personal for him.
But I got very frustrated because he couldn't seem to give me a reason why it was still a good idea.
Michael Lee: Just as a follow up, is it the case that your position was or is that nobody should do this? Because it's so outmoded that we should have all moved past this by now? And is, is by counter position, his position, that everybody should be doing this?
Or is it just sort of like, well everybody should, you know, Should name the child what they want to name the child and you have a disagreement about specific situations in which that might happen.
Loral: Yeah, I think I like the idea of bringing in new names. I don't have anything against using a family name but I think my idea is well if the kids already getting your last name you want them to have your two other names as well or Yeah, just like that.
Michael Lee: Have you had disagreements about other things about Related to [00:03:00] future family planning, for instance, the tradition of the wife taking the husband's last name.
Loral: Yeah, and I'm fine with that. Yeah,
Michael Lee: you're fine with that, but the naming after the father.
Loral: Yeah I really just I don't see the point in naming The kid after the father and so on.
And I said, what, why is that a good, you know, why is that good? And he said, well, you know, if somebody were to hear my brother's name, it's the same as my dad. So they would automatically say, Oh, you're so and so's kid. And I said, yeah, but couldn't they also just say, who's your dad?
Michael Lee: Give us a sense of how long this argument went on and how heated or contested it got.
Loral: I would say probably 30 minutes of back and forth. Yeah, and I wasn't happy with the way it ended, obviously, because it was late, and I think I made some excuse, like, Well, I have, I have a quiz tomorrow. I have to go to bed. I really don't want to talk about this anymore. And, which, you know, upset him, but I know it'll come back up in the future, so I know it's [00:04:00] not completely done with, so.
Michael Lee: How did the argument sort of stop?
Loral: Just like that. I was like, I have to go to bed, and he was like, And he also said he was like, I can't, I really don't see me being able to change your mind. And I said, yeah, I'm not like, you're not going to, I'm very stubborn. He knows that. So
Michael Lee: did you feel like you could have changed his mind in that moment?
Loral: No, I think we're very, both of us are set in stone on our opinions.
Michael Lee: Let's talk about this larger issue of traditions you're comfortable with and traditions you object to. So you object to naming, let's say the firstborn son after the father. Would you object to naming or starting a tradition of naming the firstborn Girl after the mother?
Loral: Um, like all three names. I don't really like the whole idea of that. I'm fine with using a family name, you know, pulling a name from the mother's or father's side for a middle [00:05:00] name or a first name, whatever. But all three just seems a little much.
Michael Lee: That's right. Say more about the much part. What is, what's the reasoning that you're going for when you, when you say it's a little much?
Loral: I think it's not unique anymore. You know, like, yeah, they are their own person, People are also going to expect them to be probably a lot like who they were named after.
Michael Lee: So that, in your mind, is the struggle. The struggle is, you're putting a kind of name based cage around a new, potentially totally unique human being.
Loral: And I don't want to feel like, if my first kid is a boy, he automatically has to be named after the father.
Michael Lee: And so that takes the choice out of, out of your mind and says, well, the firstborn has to be named this, and I have no choice in the matter, even as the mother of this child. Talk to me a little bit about the extent to which you and your boyfriend have had other kind of future based [00:06:00] arguments.
In other words, this is one argument about what, hypothetically, we would name. Are there other instances in which y'all have argued about? I can't think of
Loral: one as severe as this one was. Um, just because this one didn't end in any Like, we obviously do agree to disagree, you know, so.
Michael Lee: Right, but it, it's an issue, it's not like you and I are agreeing to disagree about whether we like raw onions.
Right. And in the end, I can have the raw onions on my hamburger and you can't and we can just sort of, you know. live on with that because it's totally unique and subject to our choice. This is kind of a forced choice. If we have a child and that firstborn is a son, then your boyfriend would say, name it X.
And then you would say, no, I want to name it Y or whatever I want.
Loral: Yeah, and I hate to say it, but I think he would, if it came down to it, he would side with me [00:07:00] ultimately, which just because of how stubborn I am, but you know, not good for him. But at the same time, I just couldn't, I can't get behind it.
Michael Lee: Yeah. Um, I'm interested in hearing more about, you talked about the severity. of this particular one. I mean, issue aside, because we've gotten into a little bit of your reasoning and his reasoning, is there a reason why this one was the duration it was, 30 minutes or more, and something that you're talking about now, so it's kind of stayed with you, and something that you classify as severe?
In other words, talk about the kind of heat or anger.
Loral: Yeah, well, I think some of it, was that neither of us really had good evidence for our arguments. So it's kind of just back and forth. Like, well, I think this, yeah, but I think this, um,
Michael Lee: you're just sort of stating your opinions back and very
Loral: opinion based.
Yeah.
Michael Lee: Yeah. And so even now, looking back, you think just assessing yourself, You don't think you, you had a lot of [00:08:00] feelings about the subject, but perhaps not a lot of good evidence or examples for
Loral: both of us, which makes it frustrating. Same
Michael Lee: is true for him. Yeah. So it's more back to the onions thing. Like, well, I just like, I don't.
And I don't really like that. You like them and so forth. Talk to talk to us generally about you and your boyfriend's argument styles. Do you argue similarly? Do you argue differently? Do you often end arguments with, well, I just got to go and kind of shut it down.
Loral: I do, yes. But he's very logical, unlike me, when it comes to an argument.
Mm hmm. I tend to get very emotional and He's always like, well, you know, let's just sit down and actually think about this before we get too into it, you know. So he's good at helping me sit back down and think things big picture.
Michael Lee: He doesn't have any emotional stake in arguments or express emotions during arguments.
Loral: He does, but I think logic takes precedence.
Michael Lee: And then just [00:09:00] describing yourself, you would say that you come to an argument emotion forward?
Loral: Yes.
Michael Lee: Okay. And then do you, do you then change your mind after the fact?
Loral: Um, not usually. No.
Michael Lee: There's this massive disagreement about, you know, the role, the relationship between logic and emotion.
And some people think that we, the reasons we give are just elaborations on our emotional state as opposed to some people are just emotional or some people are just rational and never the twain shall meet. And so feeling obviously has a role in any sort of argument. Otherwise, why are we even arguing in the first place if we don't care?
Yeah. So you would characterize your debating styles as one's more logical and one's more emotional. What else would you say characterizes your conflict style?
Loral: Hmm.
Michael Lee: Do you gravitate towards them? Do you have infrequent or frequent arguments?
Loral: I would say infrequent. I think this one was rare. Mm
Michael Lee: hmm. It
Loral: kind of [00:10:00] came out of nowhere.
Nowhere. I think we, in another one of my classes, we were talking about naming kids after the son and my professor pretty much stated, I think that's silly. It's, um, you know, because it's not unique, whatever. And it got me thinking about it. And I just mentioned it to my boyfriend that night and then we got into it.
Michael Lee: Is the, you, is the fight, cause we can obviously talk about the fight over kind of the traditional aspect of naming after the. But is there a larger species of arguments that y'all are having about the uniqueness issue? For instance, would, does he prefer more traditional names, whereas you prefer more unique names?
Loral: I would say so for sure. Like all of his siblings are named after somebody in their family. You know, middle names or maiden names, first names or last names. And they're all family names, you know, um, my family is [00:11:00] similar. Sometimes it just doesn't seem. As important to us, and so I think that's where I have a hard time understanding where he's coming from.
Michael Lee: Can you describe, and this might be me reading way too much into this, but I'm curious about it, so I'm going to ask. Do you have similar relationships with your families? In other words, is he a bit more tied into his family than you are yours? And so this naming issue is actually a subset of a much larger issue, which is how do we relate to our larger families?
You preferring a more individual approach, him preferring a more family based approach.
Loral: Yes, definitely. He's very Um, he and every single one of his brothers has gone to the same college his dad went to. You know, his brother is the fourth in their family. Um, they're very close knit, very traditional in that sense.
And I think, I'm an only child, so I don't, you know, have any of that other sibling experience. Um, [00:12:00] my parents are not together. So it's, we have a very different family home life.
Michael Lee: Is there a part of him that's envious of Your background, the kind of familial independence that you have, and is there a part of you that's envious of the tighter relationship he has with his larger family network?
Loral: I wouldn't say he's envious of mine just because he is so close with his family. Um, I'm definitely envious of people that do have siblings and they have that bond. Um, but I'm not envious of how traditional they are in their thinking. Like, if you have a company and the dad owns it, He wants it passed down or Siblings go to the same school things like that.
I I can't really
Michael Lee: the choice is sort of made for you Yeah,
Loral: kind of I wouldn't go so far as to say brainwashing but almost kind of it feels like it
Michael Lee: Two [00:13:00] last questions one. Where do you see this specific issue the naming issue going? Is this something that'll come up again? It will be A kind of sensitive issue or is this something that you'll likely kind of laugh about and be like, remember we had that 30 minute argument over FaceTime about that thing.
That's not a big deal.
Loral: I think it will definitely come up again, but by then, hopefully we'll have evidence and it'll be a little more under control, not, not as emotion based as it was the first time.
Michael Lee: And then this larger issue of your separate relationships to your families, the way you relate to the family being very different.
How do you see that playing out? Um,
Loral: it's very frustrating for me because I will explain, you know, something going on between me and my parents. And he's very supportive, obviously, but in the back of my mind, it's like, yeah, but you really don't know what I'm going through. You have no idea. You can kind of picture it, but not really like your [00:14:00] parents are.
In my eyes, perfect, you know, so I think that's, it's very hard to wrap my head around our different backgrounds.
Michael Lee: Laurel, thank you very much.
Loral: Thank you.
Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.