Taylor Swift

Should Taylor Swift endorse political candidates? 

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 When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. Arguments, disagreements, dust ups, spats, big fights, conflicts, clashes, debates, and a million other synonyms. Whether we are avoiders, compromisers, tricksters, or trolls, disagreements are a part of our lives and our relationships.

They are important to us, even as we make many different meanings out of them.  I'm Michael Lee. Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston, today's guest on When We Disagree is Maddie Barnett, a graduate student from New Jersey. Maddie, tell us an argument story.

Hi. Okay, so my story starts in Maine. Um, I was working as a summer camp counselor at an all girls sleepaway camp. And we were in the, um, it's called pre camp. So basically the counselors arrive a little bit earlier just to do certain, uh, trainings and such. Um, so I was sitting at kind of a campfire that they had for us to get to know each other.

And I was minding my own business when I heard a discussion behind me begin about Taylor Swift, and I have been a Taylor Swift fan since I could speak, um, thanks to my dad. Um, and basically the conversation started and I heard a girl that I had known fairly well, um, we attended the camp together as campers, and she just began to speak on how much she Did not like Taylor Swift and usually when somebody says that I expect, you know, I don't like her music.

It all sounds the same. She only talks about boys and her relationships, but this is a little different. She began to say that she just didn't feel like Taylor Swift was doing enough for politics  or speaking out on specific issues that were going on in the world. And I was kind of trying to bite my tongue because I would be jumping into a conversation that did not include me.

But I just could not. So I kind of tapped her on the shoulder and I said, Hey, that's a very interesting take. You know, why do you feel that way? Um, and she just began to say that, you know, she thinks that  Taylor Swift has such a big platform. She's not using it for the right reasons. There's so many.

Greater issues going on in the world and her relationships. Why isn't she speaking out about them? I first said, well, have you watched her Miss Americana documentary? Because she does have a pretty, a quiet, but she does have a political voice on matters that pertain to her. Um, specifically she had spoken out, um, in a Tennessee election against Marsha Blackburn.

Um,  uh, she just said, you know, I can't. I can't vote for her. This is who I'm voting for, which is the other Democratic, uh, candidates. Um, basically, Marsha Blackburn just had to vote against some bills pertaining to women's rights. Um, and she kind of just said that, and that was all she said, and Marsha Blackburn actually went on to win the election.

Anyways, um, and since, you know, she does post, like, the occasional register to vote, but I guess that's kind of the extent of her political voice, and my friend, my other counselor, um, just said that it wasn't enough, and we got into a pretty heated argument, voices were raised, um,  and  I just, it never really sat right with me, I guess, because I don't believe that singers and musicians have an inherent right to,  you know, inherent  obligation to speak out.

On political matters, because that's not what they were made famous for, and I don't think that I would want  every musician to tell me what to do, um, or how to vote, or what to believe, and I don't think that politicians should sing, so I don't know. I think it goes either way. 

You've given us a ton to think about.  I want to jump back to clarify what the arguer, what is, or what name can we give the person you were arguing with?  Um, Callie. Okay. So, is Callie's point here that Taylor Swift is, was not doing enough about some specific issue or was her argument that she's just not doing enough generally to support all of the positions that Callie supports?

Yeah. Just not doing enough generally. 

And then your position was?  She is doing enough, but in general you think that she has no burden to do enough. She can do whatever she wants to with the virtue of her celebrity. Yes.  So what an interesting position for you to take there in saying she's doing enough because she's  been thoughtful in the Tennessee election and she's done X, Y, and Z, but also that's from my standard above and beyond what anybody should ever have to do in Taylor Swift's position.

Yeah. Is that right? 

Yeah, I would say I believe in speaking out against things that pertain  to you, I would  believe in, but that's just like me, you know, having a difficult conversation with a friend or something about a matter that,  You know,  involves both of us. Did Kelly want Taylor Swift to be specific on X, Y, or Z issue? 

What is the, what is the metric for, how could Taylor Swift ever do enough, per Kelly's point of view? Yeah, I think her main, like, her main argument was, you know, the 2016 election, I guess, in which, um, Taylor Swift said nothing when so many people with  platforms were speaking out. Right. Um. 

In this instance, where did the heat come from? You mentioned that it was kind of a heated conversation. Yeah. And as I sit here and we can recreate these arguments, and we hear these arguments all the time, both about Taylor Swift as well as NFL players and many other people about what is the political role that celebrities should play.

Yeah. Which they oftentimes seem like. Lighthearted banter, but we know from this example, and we know from the culture broadly that these are hot button issues. These are important emotional questions that we were all asking ourselves and one another all the time. So tell us a bit about that, how heated this disagreement got and why.

Yeah, um.  Well, I think maybe just kind of the language. I was said, you know, well, you obviously didn't watch her documentary because you know and there's a point in that when she talks about the Tennessee election and she tears up and she has this whole fight with her father and it's very emotional and Callie responded, well, I actually did and I didn't think it was enough and I was like, well, what do  you want from her?

And I guess also just  I don't I think that when you're talking about In this instance, Taylor Swift, somebody who like,  as many other people in this world today do, I love her, and to me, I just,  it's like you're insulting my best friend. I don't know, it sounds so silly, and I probably sound, I don't know, crazy, but it's just, I take it very personally, because she is I literally sound crazy, but like, you know, she's like, I feel like I've related to her music in a lot of ways, and she's, I've grown up with her, and it's just, it seems like you're attacking somebody that I'm close to when you're not, but 

Yeah, I'd like to hear more about that.

My daughters, in all honesty, are developing Swifties, and they're developing a fascination, an interest, an attachment to her really quickly that I find deeply fascinating, and so I'm engaging. There's an obvious age difference, but I'm, I'm engaging her music and quite like it a lot. And I'm interested in her as a role model for lots of people. 

Um,  so I'm, I'm curious to hear more about that, about the, you're not necessarily when you say that you took it a little personally, you're not separating the artist from the art. So if I said. I really like Taylor Swift'sI really like 1989, the album, but I really don't like Taylor Swift's relational choices, hypothetically.

You would take that  negatively.  

You know, it's interesting because  I had told Kelly in the moment, I was like, well, you can separate the art from the artist, like, you don't have to hate all of her music just because you don't like her, which, when I'm more level headed, it does make sense, but at the same time, I think I had gotten so upset because  I was defending Taylor Swift's character, or her as a person, so I don't, I don't know, I guess that is an interesting thing. 

The question I have is, is there something that Callie or somebody else could have said that was quote unquote negative or critical about Taylor Swift that you would have been completely okay with? Or would you have tapped her on the shoulder and jumped to Taylor Swift's defense? Regardless of the criticism, 

I think  maybe  I felt like Kelly was saying that she wasn't deserving of such a big platform because she wasn't using it in the way that  Kelly had wanted her to. And I think that's where I was so upset because I think she deserves everything that she has. Um, Yeah, so I guess just, you know, when people say she's untalented or she, she's not deserving.

Right, so there was a kind of implied threat of de platforming, of making Taylor Swift less than because she's not quote unquote doing enough, whatever that means. And you were responding to that.  In addition to responding to the specific charges that were being leveled. Yeah. Do you ever find yourself kind of broadening out?

Do you ever find yourself jumping into, because it sounds like this was a dispute, a conversation that was happening a few feet away from you that you weren't involved in, and you very much involved yourself in it.  Is that a position you find yourself in in other 
circumstances? No, honestly, not at all. I am not one to  join anybody's Disagreements.

I, or conversations. I'm a pretty reserved. I'm very actually, um,  I'm, I would consider myself shy, but I don't know. Something just persuaded me to put my own input in. Do you like arguments or arguments? Something you seek out to disagree with other people. It sounds like, I mean, you obviously have the facts on your side as far as Taylor Swift is concerned, this is not Yeah.

An area where you're unresearched. Yeah. And so if, when you feel like you have a point to prove or you the facts are on your side. Yeah. Do you feel like you avoid conflict or still are pretty shy about conflict even if you are well researched on the subject? I'd say I'm pretty shy about it. Um, I mean, I sat in the back of so many of my political science classes, like just kind of.

I'm not sure where to jump in because I was, I don't, I was nervous about saying the wrong thing or something, even though I do consider myself to be pretty aware and  I guess educated on,  you know,  things.  

Why is that, you think, if you did some self diagnosis, where does the shyness to debate this, this is an obvious, an exception, right?

Yeah. An even more interesting exception. given that you say you're pretty shy and don't want to have this kind of dialogue or discourse with people. Yeah. But jump in on the Taylor Swift example. 

Yeah. Oh, just saying the wrong thing, or maybe I think I have all the facts, but I actually don't, and 

What did you learn from this? Why did this conflict stick with you?  

Well,  because by the end of the summer she had come to me and she said, Maddie, I actually really like Taylor Swift, and I'm sorry.  And I just thought it was interesting. But, it  comes to mind recently because obviously Taylor Swift's been in the spotlight quite a lot, and I had actually, I was scrolling through Instagram.

The other day, and I saw that she had posted Taylor Swift on her Instagram story, uh, just a general, like,  register to vote and a link to vote. org. And then I had seen on some article or something, like, Taylor Swift posts on Instagram story, Register to vote and 35, 000 new voters register and I was kind of like, maybe I should send it to her, but  I didn't.

So at the end of the summer she comes to you and says I was wrong. You were right and also reaffirms that she really likes Taylor Swift. 

Yeah. Well, it was funny because As the day that the campers arrived, I had seen in her cabin, one of her campers hung up a huge heiress tour, uh, tapestry. And I look, I remember looking at it and I was kind of like, Hmm, I wonder how that's going to go.

And then our cabins were actually next to each other and she played guitar. And I heard, I would hear her singing Taylor Swift to her campers. And I was like, I wonder how that, like how she's doing. But she had said, she was like, you know, my campers really like her and I'm not going to like hate on any woman that's.

Doing so well and inspiring so many young girls. Um, and I was kind of like, wanted to be like, well,  do you want, like, what do your 12 year olds think about Taylor Swift's political? Actions, but I wasn't gonna say that.  I don't know. 

I'm struck by, as we close, I'm struck by two different versions of Maddie that you've presented here.

One that is shy and sitting in the back of the political science classroom and doesn't want to participate for fear of maybe saying the wrong thing. And then the Taylor's defender Maddie.  Who jumps into a conversation that you weren't initially involved in. And it sounds like you really won the day.

Both in the debate itself as well as over the course of the summer.  I guess my question is, how do you reconcile those two presentations of yourself? Which one do you identify with more sitting here right now?  

I guess  if I'm particularly passionate about something, or someone in this case, Taylor Swift, then I am definitely going to defend them. 

Um, I think it just comes from a place of how much it, like, draws on me, or how much of an emotional connection I have to the subject.  

Maddy Barnett, thanks so much for being on When We Disagree. 

Thank you for having me. 

When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com