When do we want to be normal? When do we want to stand out? And, what is "normal," anyway?
Tell us your argument stories!
When do we want to be normal? When do we want to stand out? And, what is "normal," anyway?
Tell us your argument stories!
A Normal College Experience
Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves. We all disagree. Some of us are disagreeable all of the time. All of us are disagreeable some of the time. This podcast reflects on the importance of disagreements in our lives, one story at a time.
Each week, one guest tells a story of a disagreement that had a significant impact on their lives. And was in some ways, unforgettable. I'm Michael Lee, professor of communication and director of the civility initiative at the college of Charleston. Today's guest is Maggie Cubitt, a graduate student from South Carolina.
Maggie, tell us an argument story.
Maggie Cubitt: Okay. So my argument story is I was talking to a friend, her name was Maddie. And she said to me, your college experience is not normal. And [00:01:00] I was kind of taken aback. And she was like, you play college sports and that's just not normal. She's in a sorority. She did that type of the college experience at Alabama, and I played tennis undergrad at LSU.
And we kind of disagreed and went back and forth, and I was just kind of saying like, yes, it is different than what you're doing, but that does not mean that it's wrong or not normal.
Michael Lee: So just to set the scene, Maddie, A sorority member at the University of Alabama or a southern school says to you, Maggie, a tennis player, that your college experience is atypical.
How did that even come up? Why was that?
Maggie Cubitt: I think I was just, we were at lunch and we were just talking about school and she was talking about like formals and stuff and I made a comment like, I'll never really attend formals regularly and. Um, she was like, yeah, well, you play tennis and [00:02:00] that's just not normal.
I
Michael Lee: want to reflect for a moment on how much you talked about the word normal. Was that in question? What is the definition of normal? Why does it matter if somebody's experience is or is not normal?
Maggie Cubitt: I just kind of said, why do you think that? And, um, I guess we are from the South, so like being in a sorority is a big thing.
And she was like, that's just what everyone from our hometown did. And so me not doing that was just considered, I guess, not right in her eyes. Not not right, but different.
Michael Lee: Different, but not in a good way?
Maggie Cubitt: For her, I think it was just like different, like proud of me that I'm doing it, but just like different in that, like, I'll never get to experience the normal that she did.
Michael Lee: Okay, I guess that's sort of what my next question was, was I was reflecting on this. Question, because you could use the word typical, and I think it would have a different valence, a different kind of judgment. When you say something is abnormal, perhaps somebody could take that to mean [00:03:00] worse than, or you're missing out because you're so abnormal, or whatever the case might be.
In this case, was she saying that your collegiate abnormality was somehow disadvantageous for you? That you were, in fact, missing out?
Maggie Cubitt: I think so. I think that she thinks that I was missing out on, like, That side of college and I was, in my head, I was just, there's different ways you can go to college and be a part of different things and it's normal for each person differently.
Like each person has different experiences and that's okay.
Michael Lee: Were you struck? Was your initial sense that you needed to defend that what you were doing was normal, that collegiate athletes is a very, collegiate athletics is a very normal quote unquote part of the college experience for everybody, whether they're participating or watching?
Maggie Cubitt: That's a good question. I think for watching it is normal. I think actually being on a team and [00:04:00] experiencing that is not normal because it's such a small percentage of people.
Michael Lee: Uh huh. Could you reframe it, or did you think about reframing it as you're right, what I'm doing is pretty special, not everybody has this opportunity to play a sport at this high level and have a scholarship to do so.
Maggie Cubitt: Yeah, and I kind of, I, she knows that I have, I had a scholarship and that, um, I think I made it clear that like, it is okay, like, I did this and you did that and we all have, experiences, but that doesn't mean that one's worse or better than the other.
Michael Lee: How did the conversation, well, how long did it take this whole dispute, this whole debate over normality.
Maggie Cubitt: Five, six minutes, and then I was just kind of like, okay, we can agree to disagree.
Michael Lee: And at the end, was there a disagreement?
Maggie Cubitt: I think, I think I realized that people that don't, Do college athletics don't really understand [00:05:00] and that I just realized that she would never understand like that side of being a part of a team instead of just watching it
Michael Lee: take me through that.
If you don't mind your kind of investment. I mean, you're physically, emotionally, time wise, invested in an experience that's pretty unique on a college campus or wherever else to spend this much time playing a sport. Perfecting your craft in a way in a competitive sense, too. And tennis is especially brutal in one sense because it's kind of one on one or two on two, right?
It's not like you're on a huge team who's on the field at the same time. You know, you kind of sink or swim on your own. So take me through the kind of investment you have in whether you want to seem normal or seem special, unique as a part of this experience. I
Maggie Cubitt: mean, I think I played tennis since I was 10.
And it took the eight years before you turn 18 and start Talking to schools that I was missing stuff on the weekends, like I was gone all the time. I got out of school early since the sixth grade to go [00:06:00] practice. Um, you go to school, you go to college, and it's brutal, like, the amount of time you spend on the court, the amount of time you spend doing, um, weights, training.
I had surgery my freshman year, I had surgery my senior year, it's just a lot of, like, mental and physical, like, distress.
Michael Lee: An emotional distress of winning, losing, am I going to get a scholarship, what position am I on the team?
Maggie Cubitt: Yeah, for tennis, that's, there's six spots that you can play in. One being the best, six being, like, the worst in the lineup, technically.
And so, like, every day of practice, you are competing for a spot. A spot like you want to get better. You want to move up. If you have a bad performance for three weeks in a row, you're moving down or you're being taken out of the lineup.
Michael Lee: So as you, as you stress these things, and I'm thinking about my own collegiate experience, and I've been teaching at a college for 20 years now, and the collegiate experience of so many students that I've [00:07:00] encountered on a day to day level.
take out whether they're there to do a special activity like tennis or whether they're on scholarship. So few of us really know in the kind of ranking and pecking order where we are, whereas every day in practice you are, I'm two today, I'm three today, I'm whatever number today. Yeah.
Maggie Cubitt: You're very aware.
Michael Lee: And that's a very specific atypical, let's throw out the word normal for a moment, but it's an atypical experience for folks. So when you recount that, I'm, I'm struck by a sense of on some level, She's right. She's identifying something that she's seeing that you're doing that's different. Right. And then the question is, is that a conclusion that you were comfortable with hearing in the moment or even now as we share it and talk about it?
And then two, what was implied by identifying difference? Are we celebrating difference? Are we judging difference and saying you don't get to do the stuff that I get to do and so therefore it's worse?
Maggie Cubitt: I think I, that conversation made me realize that [00:08:00] people are never really going to get it. Like, I'll be unique in that I did it and I'm one of three people in my hometown that did do the college athletic experience.
So it kind of made me personally realize that like, no one ever gets it.
Michael Lee: No one ever gets it.
Maggie Cubitt: No, not like, no one that didn't play college athletics can really like know the hardships that you go through.
Michael Lee: And what do you do with that conclusion? Do you try to help those of us who can't get it understand?
Do you just say, well, they'll never get it and let's move on. I played tennis. I had a unique experience and then we'll just move on and talk about something that's something we can both approach the weather or politics or whatever that is.
Maggie Cubitt: I think people that like. want to like, talk about it and want to be like, I want to understand, it's easier to have a conversation with them and kind of let them know like, really what it is.
People that are, Maddie in that instance was very like, set on what she believed. So I feel like it's kind of difficult to [00:09:00] skew her opinion.
Michael Lee: Is this something you've run into with other Maddies of the world? People who either for, for good or for ill are identifying, judging, celebrating. A unique athletic achievement and experience in college.
Maggie Cubitt: I think a lot of people celebrate it and are proud that I did it are still cheering for me. Yeah. Um, there's some that are still like, Oh, it's easy. Like. It's not that hard, like, it's okay. And then I'm just like, okay, you're right. Like, you don't get it.
Michael Lee: Is that because you feel like they don't understand the effort?
They feel like perhaps you were born with some athletic talent that you just go on the court and express and that's it. And they don't see the nights, the weekends, the surgeries, et cetera.
Maggie Cubitt: Yeah. I feel like they just look at it very narrowly, but it's very like broad, like all this stuff that you do. I think they just think that.
It's easy. You just go [00:10:00] out and it's, it's all there that I'm going to go and be amazing and play one and then go professional.
Michael Lee: Right. How do you think, or why do you think this conversation with Maddie Stuck out to you amongst the many different conversations you've had about this unique thing you've engaged in.
Maggie Cubitt: I think she was probably, she's one of my closest friends, and I never really had heard it in that instance, like, heard it from someone that bluntly.
Michael Lee: Is there some part of you, obviously you've got to do this unique experience, you've worked at it, and you've sacrificed for it. We've talked a lot about that, and let's talk about the stuff that she says you're missing out on, the stuff that maybe you have missed out on.
Is there some part of you that comes up that says You're right, I have missed out on some things and I do have some regrets about missing out on those things, whether it's sorority life or nightlife or having a different relationship with your peers, your school, et cetera.
Maggie Cubitt: Definitely. [00:11:00]
Michael Lee: Anything come to mind there when you think about that?
Maggie Cubitt: I saw one of my friends go to Clemson and play tennis and do the sorority thing. And I was kind of jealous of that because when I went in, it really wasn't an option to do that. And I feel like that'd be the best of both worlds. Um, but when I went through the recruiting process. Being in a sorority or just not playing tennis wasn't really a question and I think when I look back now I think I would have maybe changed something so I could have had a little bit more of a Kind of work life balance in a sense tennis life balance
Michael Lee: That was kind of my last question Which is either in the conversation with her narrowly or more broadly Reflecting on this experience that the conversation the disagreement was about what would you change?
If anything,
Maggie Cubitt: I think now I can't look back and change anything. And I think I learned a lot about [00:12:00] myself going through that and having these conversations with people. Um, I feel like if anything that I would want to change would be people just, which I know I can't change this, but people just identifying me as just a tennis player.
Michael Lee: Maggie Cubitt, thanks so much for being on when we disagree.
Maggie Cubitt: Thank you.
Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail. com.