John learns the pitfalls of posting about politics on social media during election season.
Tell us your argument stories!
John learns the pitfalls of posting about politics on social media during election season.
Tell us your argument stories!
Michael Lee: [00:00:00] When We Disagree is a show about arguments, how we have them, why we have them, and their impact on our relationships and ourselves.
Disagreements are events. They happen in real time between real people in real places, but they are also tools, ones that can help build or destroy our relationships. This podcast reflects on the importance of arguments in our lives, one story at a time. I'm Michael Lee, Professor of Communication and Director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston.
Today's guest is John Smith. John, tell us an argument story.
John Smith: Well, this story dates back to about the 2020 elections. Um, so at the time I really had a disdain for Trump and Biden and just couldn't see myself voting for either of them. So I decided to, um, investigate third party options. And one of the [00:01:00] politicians that really piqued my interest was, uh, Joe Jorgensen because she, um, had a really different perspective on looking at things.
She sees that the government has too much control over our daily lives. And I I've never really sided with the conservative opinions regarding abortion, gun control, and all that. as well as the liberal sides of things too, um, which are like the enormous amount of government programs. Um, and just the fact that she offered a different alternative that was non establishment and provided different perspectives to me, it was really intriguing.
Michael Lee: Who are you arguing with about your support for Joe Jorgensen's candidacy?
John Smith: Um, honestly, like, I would just like post on my Instagram story, like, Joe Jorgensen, and I just get like a bunch of different people regarding, uh, me like, as [00:02:00] stupid, she's never gonna win, which I knew at the time, of course she wasn't gonna win, when was the last time an independent's become the president?
Michael Lee: What were all the arguments that people made on social media or in real life about your support for Jorgensen?
John Smith: Well, like, I just got a bunch of hatred from people on both sides because I've never really ever identified with one side or the other. Um, so, Like I'd get hate from my liberal friends being like, if you don't vote for Biden, then Donald Trump's going to win and he's going to, you know, destroy trans rights and, you know, take away our civil liberties.
And then I'd get arguments from my conservative friends. Oh, if you don't vote for Trump, you're going to, uh, all the guns are going to get taken away and we're going to be in a country.
Michael Lee: And then, and did you respond? Did you? As they say, feed the trolls. Did you engage with people in argument and counterargument on social media?
John Smith: Yeah, I definitely did. I, [00:03:00] and I've learned to not do that. And I really don't post political stuff unless it's just like a very light meme at this point.
Michael Lee: So this is kind of a learning experience for you saying here I am, I support a third party and this is why I support a third party and then getting, as you said, hate from people, it sounds like making some pretty extreme arguments.
So. Because of your vote, we're essentially going to lose our life and our liberty and our livelihood, um, because you're helping or hurting Trump or Biden get elected, right?
John Smith: Right, yeah, on both sides, and it just, it became very clear to me after I lost a couple friends that it just wasn't worth it to express my political opinion, and I could get better, um, Feedback by just not doing that.
Michael Lee: Talk about the losing of friends. You had real relational consequences because of this.
John Smith: Oh, yeah I mean, there's people that still don't talk to me over it and I think that's like ridiculous because I had a different viewpoint I mean, I think we as a society need to work together to express [00:04:00] our different viewpoints and to learn from each other Whereas just oh, I'm not gonna talk to you anymore because you think differently for me.
Michael Lee: I know you're not speaking to one another. The relationship has ended, but so it's hard to get in the head of somebody who won't talk to you, but put yourself in their heads. I mean, what do you think that's about? They're kind of shunning you in a way.
John Smith: I mean, I just feel like they probably felt betrayed by my opinion and that I like. I guess for the issue of like trans rights, I had a bunch of trans friends from high school who didn't, um, couldn't understand that I wasn't actively like against them at all, uh, by supporting somebody else and the candidate who I supported never has spoken on the issue anyways, but they felt like I was attacking them for who they are, which is not the case at all.
Michael Lee: Can you envision a scenario, to take the flip side, can you envision a scenario in which you found out something about a close [00:05:00] friend, political, let's say, keep it political, and you found out that your close friend supported or didn't support this thing that was near and dear to you? How would you square that with your friendship?
In other words, how do you square differences with your friends?
John Smith: I mean, I think that I established early on with my friends that, um, if we're gonna be able to debate civilly and if somebody just wants to argue with me, then I just, like, exclude that from our friendship. I, I just won't, I won't engage with it because it's just not worth it to lose more friends over silly little disagreements.
Michael Lee: If you and I are close friends and we happen to have an open disagreement about the First Amendment or the Second Amendment or pick an amendment, then you and I carry on as friends and we just sort of agree to disagree on that issue and we just don't talk about the First or the Second Amendment. Is that sort of what you're saying?
John Smith: Yeah. Oh yeah, 100%. It's just not worth it.
Michael Lee: We just go and watch NFL games or Yeah, do whatever we do. Yeah, and let's make sure not to [00:06:00] cover the third rail not to talk about this disputed territory
John Smith: And I mean sometimes it comes up and it gets a little heated but I think I've become a lot better about being able to like Disengage from that conversation and just change the topic to something that we both can agree on
Michael Lee: Do you think, stretching out a bit, I mean we've all heard, especially after 2016 and 2020, stories that are a lot like yours.
Somebody posts something, or consistently posts something, in support of a position that they believe in passionately, let's say, assuming they're A faithful actor, and then there is disagreement. That disagreement becomes hostile. Families are broken apart. Relationships are destroyed. We cannot agree to disagree, as the phrase goes.
Do you think there's any sort of positive role, socially, for arguing about politics online?
John Smith: Um, Honestly, I mean, unless it's productive where people can learn from each other, I don't think that it's productive at all. It just [00:07:00] causes dispute and it's just a waste of time, fuels hatred, and further erases our political polarization.
Michael Lee: What about in real life? What changes when we take the dispute about Jurgensen's third party candidacy or Biden or Trump offline and make it online and in person and in real life? I think that has similar destructive potential for sure. Or is there something unique about social media that makes it easier in your opinion?
John Smith: Oh, I completely think that there's something about social media that just like dehumanizes us. Um, it like allows people to hide behind a wall. of the internet. And then it's people say stuff that they would never ever say to somebody in real life.
Michael Lee: And yet it has these real life consequences because as you say, the things that you and several friends were saying to one another led to the end of in real life relationships, not just acquaintances you had on social media.
John Smith: Yeah, and I think the like turning point where I finally [00:08:00] realized that it wasn't worth debating, uh, was when I had, um, a friend freshman year of college that I had planned to move in with for sophomore year and maybe the foreseeable future until graduation. Um, I was over at another one of our mutual friends house watching, um, a conservative perspective on, I'm not, I can't remember what it was on, and he came in and just got so offended about it And he left and I was like, you know, I would have turned off the TV if I had known that was gonna make you leave.
Like, you know, I want to be friends. And then a few weeks later, he was like, I don't want to live with you anymore.
Michael Lee: Was there ever an explanation about why thatreaction?
John Smith: Um, I mean, it was like a pretty controversial issue at the time. And it was definitely a lot of division, um, between, uh, both sides of the argument and, but the thing was, like I said, I was just exploring the different perspectives because I like to view different perspectives and [00:09:00] gain insight to see what each side has to argue, what facts they put forth and how I can learn from them.
Michael Lee: So you're somebody who is looking around for good information and hopefully in your mind determining what you believe based on the facts but not having a filter about which facts are allowable before you make your determination. And so if you're letting the facts guide your belief system, then you kind of have to look around to find the appropriate ones to figure out what you believe, right?
John Smith: Right.
Michael Lee: How does this experience affect you? change or help or hurt that pursuit, the pursuit of facts, the pursuit of truth for you to figure out what's right and true in the world. When you now know that if you express some things, there's going to be real life or online consequences.
John Smith: Yeah, I mean, honestly, even in like classroom debates, like I, I usually just try and stay out of it and keep my thoughts to myself unless I can offer something that's pretty nonpolitical, which is kind of unfortunate, I feel [00:10:00] like, because I thought the whole point of coming to college was to explore different viewpoints and to learn from them.
Michael Lee: You feel like you've increased your self censorship to not to put words in your mouth, but no Yeah,
John Smith: I completely agree with that Yeah,
Michael Lee: what else do you think that has what are other consequences from this self censorship? Certainly not wanting to deal with certain topics in relationships.
John Smith: Just a further disdain for politics, which is something that I used to be really interested in and wanted to discuss and, you know, help people to form their own opinions and to educate themselves around the topic.
Michael Lee: And as an arguer, too, as somebody who, it sounded like at least in 2020, you were willing to mix it up, put yourself out there, say that I have a relatively unpopular or atypical opinion on the 2020 election with my support of this candidate, and now don't introduce it at all, now a little more evasive, a little, maybe not evasive, but [00:11:00] avoidant.
John Smith: Oh, yeah.
Michael Lee: Let's keep it on neutral topics. Super nice day outside today, 70 degree weather, what you have for breakfast. Only neutral topics.
John Smith: Yeah, for the most part. I mean, if something really matters to me, life or death, like, I'll put it out there, but otherwise I just try and refrain.
Michael Lee: I'm getting these two versions of you, John, coming up that I find interesting and there's a conflict between them.
One that really wants to pursue information and is deeply curious about political issues, varying opinions. Inconvenient facts perhaps. And then somebody who, since the 2020 election, really doesn't want to talk about politics at all. So you have an interest, but you can't have that re interest in a relationship with other people without risking the relationship.
How do you square those two? The person who's very curious about the world and the person who doesn't feel like the world is safe to talk [00:12:00] about?
John Smith: I don't know. It. It's definitely a tough balance. Um. I mean, honestly, I would say that like, with papers that I've written, I've like, tended to like, write perspectives that are different than mine, um, to appease like, the general, uh, consensus that the professors and the fellow students have in the class.
Uh, I mean, even when I disagree, I've just written the paper like I do agree. Um, and it's just hard, um, to have such an interest in politics and then just not be able to talk about it. It's definitely a balance. I mean, I have to find my outlets and I have found friends that I can have productive discussions with and learn from each other.
And it's honestly really nice when you have those interactions with people because it reminds you that there are people who are civil and who are willing to discuss and not get so offended that they don't ever want to talk to you again. [00:13:00]
Michael Lee: John, thank you very much for coming on When We Disagree.
John Smith: Yeah, thank you for having me.
It's been great.
Michael Lee: When We Disagree is recorded at the College of Charleston with creator and host Michael Lee. Recording and sound engineering by Jesse Kunz and Lance Laidlaw. Reach out to us at whenwedisagree at gmail.com.